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Autodesk EAGLE
EAGLE User Chat (English) Eagle v8 licensing...
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  • eagle
  • license
  • freeware
  • 8.0
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Eagle v8 licensing...

technolomaniac
technolomaniac over 8 years ago

Hi All --

 

Moving this to a separate thread so it doesn't get lost in the ether.  Here's my two cents on licensing and I'd love your feedback:

 

Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription and the EAGLE paid license will require that you install the SW and then generate an account to retrieve your license entitlement.  Once you have this, you are good to go and the SW will run as expected.  If you lose your network connection, the SW has a 14-day heartbeat that will enable you to work offline for 14 days.  I know that some folks would prefer to never have to connect, but this is required to support a monthly subscription model that can be selectively enabled and disabled when you use the SW (so you only pay when you use it).  The total cost of ownership for those folks using it less than a few weeks a year will thus be substantially lower and still enables you to access the full software for less money.  <Insert revolt here>  image

 

WRT to "what happens if autodesk decides to one day just shut off the license server?" ...ok, sure, that's possible, but so is a reality TV star becoming President of the..cough...nevermind, bad example.

 

Point is, that's a pretty remote possibility (think: time travel and alien invasions) and it wouldn't benefit us *at all* to upset the users we just spent real money hoping to bring into autodesk and earn their business.  As the guy with both development and P&L for the product, I can tell you that it's counterintuitive and wouldn't benefit us at all.  We know this.  We make SW used by governments, movie studios, game developers, MEs, Civil Engineers, machinists, etc. and you can bet that shutting down a license server is not to our benefit in any of these categories.  To demonstrate this behavior in one category, without a path for user SW and data, calls into question ALL of our tools' viability under this model.  Not helpful.

 

Now...a question was raised about "but what if I drop my subscription and I want my data".  Awesome, the data is yours and lives on your machine.  And for SW that stores data in the cloud (we have some of these) we always provide a path to your data.  If this again fails with one product, it puts all of the others up for discussion.  Again, not helpful.  (Read:  strategy = doomed).

 

"So what about needing an entitlement for the freeware to open the data I created in another version (a *paid* version) and reading it?  What if I want access and I dont want the 14-day time out?"

 

So here's the deal...We can do better here.  So we will.  Here's my commitment to the group here for freeware that ensures you always have a license that you can fall back on without need of internet connection *except when you first install it* (which after all, you would have had to get it in the first place):  in version 8.1 or 8.0.1 or whathaveyou (let's call it 'a future release'), if you install the SW and authenticate once, we'll remove the timer req.  So what I'm saying another way is, the freeware will require you to login the first time to get your license, but if you log out beyond that, you're good.  You got your entitlement and you can use it freely without connection.

 

Caveat:  to install an update, you will need to login.  The update server (which issues the new version...e.g. 8.1 or 8.2. or 8.0.1, etc.) requires that you login and get the update, but beyond that, logout.  Thus if you want to go off-grid in a mountain cabin somewhere, get your license at Starbucks (blagh! I understand they have 'free' wifi, but no frappucinos!  ...that stuff is bad for you) then get your license and go on your merry way up to the snow drenched peaks.  When you hear from the other mountaineers or your local yodeler that a new version of EAGLE is available...download, login, get your license, get your 'decaf double-pump vanilla non-fat latte macchiato' and head back up the slopes.

 

Point being, we can do the freeware better.  So we will.

 

Hope this is clear.  Let us know if you have questions!

 

Best regards,

 

Matt Berggren

Director - Autodesk

@technolomaniac

hackaday.io/matt

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Top Replies

  • COMPACT
    COMPACT over 8 years ago in reply to autodeskguest +4
    Not to worry, it's back to the Drawing board for me.
  • shabaz
    shabaz over 8 years ago +3
    Hi Matt, When will the EAGLE Maker version (or another solution for hobbiests) be v8-ready? I see the subscription for 'EAGLE Standard' and 'EAGLE Premium' are now available on the website, but not EAGLE…
  • albertovignati
    albertovignati over 8 years ago in reply to techsupport +3
    Il 21/02/2017 22:54, Ed Robledo ha scritto: The customers are the sole driving force to the improvements to EAGLE. Some of these 'wants' take time to be done right, that's the reason they were not done…
Parents
  • bvwj
    bvwj over 8 years ago

    The purpose of that post was to get your attention.  Your license changes have likely destroyed your product.  You haven't listened to your small customers.  Adafruit and Sparkfun are concrete evidence from your bell cow customers.

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  • technolomaniac
    technolomaniac over 8 years ago in reply to bvwj

    Thank you for the reply.  And my comment was simply that telegraphing your frustrations as a statement like that, without a link to the article, post, etc. is not productive.   We understand that for some percentage of users, the license changes were undesirable.  This is something that we've discussed in detail and we are doing *much* more than simply 'changing the licensing' with EAGLE. 

     

    The real value of eagle is around productivity in engineering and design, and we are improving productivity each and every day.  The features that are coming (obstacle avoidance in routing, better trace cleanup and alignment tools, push and shove & multitrack routing, bidirectional MCAD integration, better layer handling, improvements to libraries and component creation, etc.) will define the future of EAGLE far more than the licensing model. 

     

    Cheers,

     

    Matt - Autodesk.

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  • technolomaniac
    technolomaniac over 8 years ago in reply to bvwj

    Thank you for the reply.  And my comment was simply that telegraphing your frustrations as a statement like that, without a link to the article, post, etc. is not productive.   We understand that for some percentage of users, the license changes were undesirable.  This is something that we've discussed in detail and we are doing *much* more than simply 'changing the licensing' with EAGLE. 

     

    The real value of eagle is around productivity in engineering and design, and we are improving productivity each and every day.  The features that are coming (obstacle avoidance in routing, better trace cleanup and alignment tools, push and shove & multitrack routing, bidirectional MCAD integration, better layer handling, improvements to libraries and component creation, etc.) will define the future of EAGLE far more than the licensing model. 

     

    Cheers,

     

    Matt - Autodesk.

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  • electrooptical
    electrooptical over 8 years ago in reply to technolomaniac

    Well, maybe there's a niche available between Kicad and Diptrace on one side and Altium on the other that you folks can move Eagle into.

     

    Best of luck with that--the SaaS model does seem to be alienating your existing user base pretty comprehensively, so hopefully there are lots of folks waiting in the wings to pounce on the new-improved versions.

     

    I wish you folks well, but I won't be along for the ride.

     

    Cheers

     

    Phil Hobbs

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  • drkirkby
    drkirkby over 8 years ago in reply to technolomaniac

    Matt Berggren wrote:

     

    Thank you for the reply. And my comment was simply that telegraphing your frustrations as a statement like that, without a link to the article, post, etc. is not productive. We understand that for some percentage of users, the license changes were undesirable. This is something that we've discussed in detail and we are doing *much* more than simply 'changing the licensing' with EAGLE.

     

    The real value of eagle is around productivity in engineering and design, and we are improving productivity each and every day. The features that are coming (obstacle avoidance in routing, better trace cleanup and alignment tools, push and shove & multitrack routing, bidirectional MCAD integration, better layer handling, improvements to libraries and component creation, etc.) will define the future of EAGLE far more than the licensing model.

     

    Cheers,

     

    Matt - Autodesk.

    As a matter of interest, what was Autodesk's motivation for changing the licensing so a license server needs to be running? Clearly adding better layer handling improves a tool, but I'm interested what prompted the decision to change the license model. Eagle is obviously aimed at reasonably technically savvy people, and those sort of people tend to foresee the problems such a system could cause.

     

    If you pay a monthly subscription to get access to TV channels, and your TV needs to connect to a license server via the internet, people would probably not care. It's a bit different when the product is a bit of software like Eagle, where people might expect to use it in years to come, and obviously are concerned that they will lose access to the files.

     

    90% of the test equipment in my lab is made by HP or Agilent. Of that, almost all is obsolete, and no longer supported. It is a good job none of it has to connect to the internet to keep working.

     

    I can think of any number of computer programs that were very popular in their time, but are no longer sold or supported. I

     

    * WordPerfect

    * Lotus 123

    * Wordstar

     

    being 3 that come to mind.

     

    Oh, and just as I was looking for a list of obsolete software, I came across this Autodesk Softimage 2015 Final Release Announcement.

     

    Softimage 2015 Final Release Announcement

     

    where it says

     

    "We regret to inform you that the upcoming 2015 release will be the last one for SoftimageRegistered software. This final version is expected to ship on or around April 14, 2014. Autodesk will continue to offer product support until April 30, 2016. We will also provide Softimage support services (including Hot Fixes and Service Packs) to all Softimage customers with Autodesk Subscription, at no cost, until April 30, 2016."

     

    Perhaps, when you consider the software packages that are no longer sold or supported, you realize that many people don't want to invest time/effort into something that could stop working.

     

    Barings Bank started trading in 1762. More than 300 years later the bank folded, due to the actions of one single employee - Nick Leason.

     

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barings_Bank

     

    Past history of software and commercial companies leaves one feeling that a bit of software that relies on a server someone else controls, is not a good idea. For me personally, it is a no brainer - I would never purchase software that works on this license model.

     

    Dave

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  • geralds
    geralds over 8 years ago in reply to technolomaniac

    Hello Matt,

     

    I'm sure you've also read my posts in the Eagle forums.

    First of all, thank you, also to Jorge, for upgrading my proposal on the circuit boards (standard PCB) layers from two layers to four layers.

    Fine, but I asked over 4 years for many other features, features that we had since the 6. version. - e.g. standard PCB 160cm² with 6 layers.
    Or features that I've been working with since 198x, 199x's ... with PCAD, what I've suggested to get it also in Eagle.

    The ears were sleeping. Since then I know that with Cadsoft will very difficult, it will be messy with all.
    So the price, the licensing policy gives me right, gives me true, what I said.
    And I'm not alone.

     

    I also know about AutoDesk since the 198x's (in 200x's I was also a reseller of special tools like this, eg Autocad or similar).

    Ok, ok, ok, ok, ... actually I can not change the tool, back to PCAD / Master Designer; It's too expensive at the moment. And my customer also have Eagle.

    This is the point - Eagle have nothing to do with other (since MSDOS era), and that have over 30 years.

    Ok, after 30 years you will now take off Eagle like a rocket; Hm, are you sure the headwind is not too strong yet?

    As I have often described:
    In order to work properly, we need ALL layers, even with the small standard PCB.
    Otherwise it is a toy.

     

    TODAY in the 21st century, the standards are quite different than they were 30 years ago.
    How should you use a standard PCB to route PGA or BGA with many pins? So, you NEED more than 4 layers.
    The dimension (routing area) is another standard.
    Here we can discuss the price.

    The next lobbying game is: "schools, universities get 3 years free license".
    What should that? Why should we pay for the schools? This is an over advantage.

     

    First with V8.0.x if it is possible:
    ) What i need is "impedance controlled routing" Wire pairs, where are this button?
    ) Bus routing is most important, manually also automatic.
    ) Today we have RF-PCB, not just digitally. Mixed topologies of PCB with e.g. WLAN on board.

    ) Today we have also air or liquid cooled PCBs or we have components mounted in layers.

    ) AND THIS ALL WITH STANDARD PCB!

    ) Pad-Stacks separat through all layers,  that we can create complex pads.

    ) Flash!!!! of pads not just drawing. Then the pads, or polygons does not coming as octagons.

    ) Editing wire shapes, vertices (not just mitering, -> Split; where is " Unsplit "). Button "Optimize" - hm.....

    !!!) After expiring the license period that the license must stay at last update quality.

    It is horrible if the dimension will falling down to a demo version, to a toy of 80cm² with two layers.

     

    ... etc....

     

    I have a company that works also hard to get projects, also what i said in the other forums here.

    I think, you see the problematics what have small companies.

     

    Best Regards,

    Gerald

    ---

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  • Joop14
    Joop14 over 8 years ago in reply to technolomaniac

    Matt Berggren wrote on Fri, 17 February 2017 22:46

    We understand that for some percentage of users, the license changes

    were undesirable.

     

     

    What percentage? 70%? 80%? 90%? So, you do understand but you are not

    willing to revert back to

    the old license system, despite that five months ago you said you shouldn't

    go subscription...

     

    Matt Berggren wrote on Fri, 17 February 2017 22:46

    This is something that we've discussed in detail ...

     

     

    Discussions are futile if they are not followed up by actions the customers

    want.

     

    Matt Berggren wrote on Fri, 17 February 2017 22:46

    ... and we are doing much more than simply 'changing the licensing'

    with EAGLE.

     

     

    Yes, the Eagle executable isn't linked static to the (Qt) libraries anymore

    causing a bunch of crashes

    and instabilities. Thank you for that.

     

    Matt Berggren wrote on Fri, 17 February 2017 22:46

    The features that are coming (obstacle avoidance in routing, better

    trace cleanup and alignment tools, push and shove & multitrack routing,

    bidirectional MCAD integration, better layer handling, improvements to

    libraries and component creation, etc.) will define the future of EAGLE

    far more than the licensing model. 

     

     

    I highly doubt that. Also because you have proven to be unreliable and I

    don't believe your promises anymore.

    Fool me once, blame on you. Fool me twice, blame on me.

     

    Why can't we buy anymore licenses for V7? Because you are afraid that a

    (high) percentage

    of Eagle users will not switch to the new licensing model? And that for

    most Eagle users, V7 & V6 are good

    enough and are much more stable and will continue to work for many years?

     

     

     

     

     

    --

    EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

     

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 8 years ago in reply to Joop14

    Am 18.02.2017 um 08:50 schrieb Joop:

    Matt Berggren wrote on Fri, 17 February 2017 22:46

    We understand that for some percentage of users, the license changes

    were undesirable.

     

    What percentage? 70%? 80%? 90%? So, you do understand but you are not

    willing to revert back to

     

    I think autodesk have calculated this risk before:

    "If we increase the average price/month about 500%, we can lose ~70% of

    the old users and we earn more money than with that old license model."

     

    This is a typical decision behavior of big companies. Short thinking

    with quarterly financial statements.

    The next step is: "If we lose more than 80% we kill this Eagle experiment."

     

    Maybe the over next step of the loyal old users is to start a

    crowdfounding project to buy eagle back from autdesk.

     

    Andreas

     

     

     

     

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  • geralds
    geralds over 8 years ago in reply to autodeskguest

    Hi Andreas,

     

     

    Yes, I've been thinking about this calculation.

    But the time is over.
    One thing that can be - young people because they do not know how strong the old have fought for an optimal tool.
    The young people can be talked a lot, they have no negotiating power "you can do that, you can do that too ...";

    But in reality the already ancient functions that have been known since the 1980s.
    What AutoDesk sells here as "new", has long been installed with other tools as standard.

     

    Gerald

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