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EAGLE User Chat (English) Eagle v8 licensing...
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  • eagle
  • license
  • freeware
  • 8.0
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Eagle v8 licensing...

technolomaniac
technolomaniac over 9 years ago

Hi All --

 

Moving this to a separate thread so it doesn't get lost in the ether.  Here's my two cents on licensing and I'd love your feedback:

 

Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription and the EAGLE paid license will require that you install the SW and then generate an account to retrieve your license entitlement.  Once you have this, you are good to go and the SW will run as expected.  If you lose your network connection, the SW has a 14-day heartbeat that will enable you to work offline for 14 days.  I know that some folks would prefer to never have to connect, but this is required to support a monthly subscription model that can be selectively enabled and disabled when you use the SW (so you only pay when you use it).  The total cost of ownership for those folks using it less than a few weeks a year will thus be substantially lower and still enables you to access the full software for less money.  <Insert revolt here>  image

 

WRT to "what happens if autodesk decides to one day just shut off the license server?" ...ok, sure, that's possible, but so is a reality TV star becoming President of the..cough...nevermind, bad example.

 

Point is, that's a pretty remote possibility (think: time travel and alien invasions) and it wouldn't benefit us *at all* to upset the users we just spent real money hoping to bring into autodesk and earn their business.  As the guy with both development and P&L for the product, I can tell you that it's counterintuitive and wouldn't benefit us at all.  We know this.  We make SW used by governments, movie studios, game developers, MEs, Civil Engineers, machinists, etc. and you can bet that shutting down a license server is not to our benefit in any of these categories.  To demonstrate this behavior in one category, without a path for user SW and data, calls into question ALL of our tools' viability under this model.  Not helpful.

 

Now...a question was raised about "but what if I drop my subscription and I want my data".  Awesome, the data is yours and lives on your machine.  And for SW that stores data in the cloud (we have some of these) we always provide a path to your data.  If this again fails with one product, it puts all of the others up for discussion.  Again, not helpful.  (Read:  strategy = doomed).

 

"So what about needing an entitlement for the freeware to open the data I created in another version (a *paid* version) and reading it?  What if I want access and I dont want the 14-day time out?"

 

So here's the deal...We can do better here.  So we will.  Here's my commitment to the group here for freeware that ensures you always have a license that you can fall back on without need of internet connection *except when you first install it* (which after all, you would have had to get it in the first place):  in version 8.1 or 8.0.1 or whathaveyou (let's call it 'a future release'), if you install the SW and authenticate once, we'll remove the timer req.  So what I'm saying another way is, the freeware will require you to login the first time to get your license, but if you log out beyond that, you're good.  You got your entitlement and you can use it freely without connection.

 

Caveat:  to install an update, you will need to login.  The update server (which issues the new version...e.g. 8.1 or 8.2. or 8.0.1, etc.) requires that you login and get the update, but beyond that, logout.  Thus if you want to go off-grid in a mountain cabin somewhere, get your license at Starbucks (blagh! I understand they have 'free' wifi, but no frappucinos!  ...that stuff is bad for you) then get your license and go on your merry way up to the snow drenched peaks.  When you hear from the other mountaineers or your local yodeler that a new version of EAGLE is available...download, login, get your license, get your 'decaf double-pump vanilla non-fat latte macchiato' and head back up the slopes.

 

Point being, we can do the freeware better.  So we will.

 

Hope this is clear.  Let us know if you have questions!

 

Best regards,

 

Matt Berggren

Director - Autodesk

@technolomaniac

hackaday.io/matt

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  • techsupport
    techsupport over 9 years ago in reply to omikron

    I cannot pay every year for software I use for no profit.

    Maybe people who design PCBs for money can pay it but I can't.

    Eagle is killed by Autodesk..

    Hobbies always incur into some expense, so having a commercially supported program with a team of developers and support personnel providing the best answer possible to your inquiries for a modest subscription of around $100/year doesn't seem like a really big ask. You can use a monthly subscription and only update your entitlement when necessary.  But I guess the ball is in our court now, its a matter of proving to the community how committed to continue making EAGLE a great product image.

    Best Regards,

    Ed

    EAGLE Forums

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  • Jan Cumps
    Jan Cumps over 9 years ago in reply to sreaves
    I think Autodesk has driven a stake in the heart of Eagle.

     

    Ow come on. It has had the biggest development injection since forever.

    Your push to jump to another tool on eevblog hasn't got any support. A single negative reaction.

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  • sreaves
    sreaves over 9 years ago

    I think Autodesk has driven a stake in the heart of Eagle. The one and ONLY reason Autodesk is changing to the subscription model is to generate revenue, no matter what they say in public. The could have left the program licensing alone and had a large group of dedicated users many

    of which would be willing to pay for upgrades under the old system. I for one will never buy any major software packages that require exorbitant fees to maintain what already works for me. Just because "everyone else in doing it" is no excuse. It did not work when I was a teenager and it certainly falls on deaf ears now. I think they needed something to compete with SolidWorks (which is a better program than anything that Autodesk has turned out) who recently teamed up with Altium for their PCB package. Unfortunately for Autodesk Eagle is not in the same league as Altium. So they are still stinging from when they had their behinds beat when SolidWorks first released their product and a lot of AutoCAD seats (along with the annual revenue) disappeared. After that the company that bought SolidWorks (Desault Systems, they also own Catia) released DraftSight for Free which can read and write all AutoCAD formats, this killed off 2D for Autodesk for many. The lack of backwards file saving with newer versions was one of issues with later versions of AutoCAD as they change the .dwg format so you coulkd not save backward compatible versions, this was a big shortfall for companies that work with many vendors, some of which could not afford to keep updating).So again like my Dad told me if someone tells you it's not about the money it usually is.

     

    On low cost and probably better PCB alternatives:

     

    For most of my PCB work I use an inexpensive program called SprintLayout6.0 from Abacom. Costs $50.00 and does a lot of amazing things. Support is wonderful. Product only needs something like 6MB. Okay no autorouter or netlist in/out but I never use one anyway. It is only "lacking" in features that

    lazy PCB designers need for the most part for 2-4 layer boards. I have made 100's of bug free boards with it. It may not be what you need (or think you need) but for 50 bucks you might want to give it a spin and see how well it works. You can directly import those Eagle 274X gerbers with your drill file and turn it into an editable PCB. This alone is worth the 50 bucks.

     

    Sprint-Layout

     

    My full take on EEVBlog:

     

    http://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/great-substitute-for-eagle-(now-that-it-has-been-autodesk'ed)/

     

    The other choice for more powerful work would be DipTrace. One time fee. Upgrades free. Something like $1195.00 for the full boat (unlimited pins and layers) version. If you are a hobby or non-profit you can get the full boat one for 348.00

     

    www.diptrace.com

     

    Of course there is KeyCAD which I need to take a look at.

     

    Sam

    W3OHM

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 9 years ago in reply to autodeskguest

    Hey Morten,

     

    It's nice to hear from you glad you are still around here lurking. I

    know there is a lot of unknowns and fear right now.

     

    I know I've written this like a million times at this point but remember

    that you can subscribe for a month at a minimum so the cost to try out

    the new features isn't that bad (Full 16 layer version of EAGLE for

    $65.00 for one month).

     

    The new forum from Autodesk, is very nice. Definitely a lot better than

    E-14 but I know that's not saying much. When I first started using it,

    kicked me out a few times but I could still post and respond so not a

    big deal. I encourage you to check it out when you have a chance( 16

    layer board, wow).

     

    We really value Morten and all the users like him. I figure that right

    now most of our experienced users are waiting to see how this all pans

    out and I respect that, in your position I would do the same thing.

     

    Ed and I are still here and we intend to be here for the foreseeable

    future(in Rachel's terms).

     

    Let us know if there's anything  we can do for you.

     

    Best Regards,

    Jorge Garcia

     

     

    --

    We have a new forum here <http://forums.autodesk.com>

     

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 9 years ago in reply to autodeskguest

    Hey Morten,

     

    It's nice to hear from you glad you are still around here lurking. I

    know there is a lot of unknowns and fear right now.

     

    I know I've written this like a million times at this point but remember

    that you can subscribe for a month at a minimum so the cost to try out

    the new features isn't that bad (Full 16 layer version of EAGLE for

    $65.00 for one month).

     

    The new forum from Autodesk, is very nice. Definitely a lot better than

    E-14 but I know that's not saying much. When I first started using it,

    kicked me out a few times but I could still post and respond so not a

    big deal. I encourage you to check it out when you have a chance( 16

    layer board, wow).

     

    We really value Morten and all the users like him. I figure that right

    now most of our experienced users are waiting to see how this all pans

    out and I respect that, in your position I would do the same thing.

     

    Ed and I are still here and we intend to be here for the foreseeable

    future(in Rachel's terms).

     

    Let us know if there's anything  we can do for you.

     

    Best Regards,

    Jorge Garcia

     

     

    --

    We have a new forum here <http://forums.autodesk.com>

     

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 9 years ago in reply to rachaelp

    rachaelp wrote on Wed, 22 February 2017 00:45

    I'm hoping once the dust settles some of the original long time members

    of these forums will start to visit again.... I hope so, their experience

    is valuable and their help was always appreciated....

     

    I share that hope, but it isn't usually the way of these things.  We all

    returned last time after they reverted the license scheme, but...

     

    Quote:

    I'm hoping Jorge, Ed and Richard (haven't seen him on here for a

    while!) will be around for the foreseeable future so it's not all change.

    I suspect any new tech support people will be on the Autodesk official

    forums rather than here though.

     

    Richard seems to be hanging around in the

    https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-deutsch/bd-p/3558.

     

    Speaking of the official forums, should we start a lottery for when the

    nntp servers will be shut off?

    --

    EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

     

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 9 years ago in reply to rachaelp

    rachaelp wrote on Wed, 22 February 2017 00:45

    I'm hoping once the dust settles some of the original long time members

    of these forums will start to visit again.... I hope so, their experience

    is valuable and their help was always appreciated....

     

    I share that hope, but it isn't usually the way of these things.  We all

    returned last time after they reverted the license scheme, but...

     

    Quote:

    I'm hoping Jorge, Ed and Richard (haven't seen him on here for a

    while!) will be around for the foreseeable future so it's not all change.

    I suspect any new tech support people will be on the Autodesk official

    forums rather than here though.

     

    Richard seems to be hanging around in the

    https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-deutsch/bd-p/3558.

     

    Speaking of the official forums, should we start a lottery for when the

    nntp servers will be shut off?

    --

    EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

     

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  • rachaelp
    rachaelp over 9 years ago in reply to omikron

    Tomas Franke wrote:

     

    I cannot pay every year for software I use for no profit.

    Maybe people who design PCBs for money can pay it but I can't.

    Eagle is killed by Autodesk..

    Hi Tomas,

     

    I agree with you here, assuming your requirements are greater than those of the available freeware license, there should at least be an equivalent non-commercial license at very low cost equivalent to the previous maker license. There currently isn't an option at that end which is unfortunate as I think having such a license would help a lot of people out and stop them leaving for KiCAD. I guess we'll have to wait and see if Autodesk decide to do anything else on the licensing front.

     

    Best Regards,

     

    Rachael

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  • omikron
    omikron over 9 years ago in reply to rachaelp

    I cannot pay every year for software I use for no profit.

    Maybe people who design PCBs for money can pay it but I can't.

    Eagle is killed by Autodesk..

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  • rachaelp
    rachaelp over 9 years ago in reply to albertovignati

    Alberto Vignati wrote:

     

    Hi Rachael,

     

    Il 22/02/2017 14:12, rachaelp ha scritto:

     

    Gerald Schwarz wrote:

    Unfortunately I don't think this is going to ever change no matter how much you argue against it. As I said, I don't see it as a huge problem as I will just either budget to keep an active subscription (whether I decide to use the budget or not) when I go to v8 (I am not going to yet) or just fall back to v7. I'm going to regularly ensure I can take my designs backwards once I go to v8 so it's never going to be an issue for me. I might even automate the process so it's all done for me!

    I also hope that Autodesk read this.

    I feel that we have just 14 days after the disaster to finishing all open projects also saving our files and changing to an other tool.

    You see that's where I think you are being too pessimistic. If you can revert to an existing v6/v7 licence and open your design and it be fully editable then you aren't in any difficult situation. If they were to change things so the required call back period for the v8 subscription was linked to the length of your subscription would that alleviate your concerns? I don't know if this is something they would consider though.

     

     

    you are hoping that it is always possible to revert to an older version (I have a full 6.6 pro license, schematiclayoutautorouter), but this is an hope, not neccessarly a truth.

     

    Nope, I am not relying on any hope of backwards compatibility with v7. Please read all my post. I will regularly check things go backwards to my perpetual v7 license and if that ever breaks I will be straight onto Autodesk to get it resolved. There is no hope, only certainty. If at any point a v8 update ceases to be enable me to go back to v7 I will not use that update until it's resolved. Simple. I have v7 forever, I have a plan to mitigate backwards compatibility and I am happy with it.

     

    Alberto Vignati wrote:

     

    Please, consider a scenario in which you need to maintain a big project for a long time and for some reason (dismissions, incompatibilities, lack of support etc.) the old design is no longer editable and also it is not possible to revert it to a v6/7 format. This is an atomic explosion: you can not access to your data. It is possible that older subscription are no longer available/supported (obsolete), newest are not fully compatible and perpetual v6/7 are too obsolete.

     

    Yes I understand the argument but I think I have this covered. I agree, just being able to open up the exact version of EAGLE I used and know it will work forever is by far the preferable option but I think my way of mitigating the risk is enough such that if I was ever in this situation I could revert to my old v7 license.

     

    At the end of the day, for me this licensing change is far less horrible/evil than the flexlm style licensing Farnell tried to do to EAGLE which I assume was to introduce a maintenance system. I hate flexlm type licensing as it means it's not usually possible to legitimately use your license on multiple machines (not simultaneously) without having an annoying dongle situation to provide node locking for this (I don't want node locking and dongles are a failure point. You can lose a dongle or it could stop working and you'd be stuffed until you could get a new dongle. I've seen this before and it usually happens when you have a critical deadline....) or a network license server which makes it impossible to take your laptop away somewhere and still use your license unless that was also hosting your license server too, in which case if you are away and your laptop got stolen, whoops you can't use your EAGLE again on your main network until you've rebuilt a new license server.... It all gets annoying very quickly with flexlm style licensing and to me risks much more down time so the current online activation seems much less of a pain.

     

    Don't get me wrong, I would prefer to be able to have the ability to make the current subscription version permanent (maybe with a final payment to convert the license) if I ended the subscription but that isn't currently an option so I am not going to worry about it as I can mitigate the risks in other ways.

     

    Best Regards,

     

    Rachael

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