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EAGLE User Chat (English) Eagle v8 licensing...
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  • eagle
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  • freeware
  • 8.0
Related

Eagle v8 licensing...

technolomaniac
technolomaniac over 8 years ago

Hi All --

 

Moving this to a separate thread so it doesn't get lost in the ether.  Here's my two cents on licensing and I'd love your feedback:

 

Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription and the EAGLE paid license will require that you install the SW and then generate an account to retrieve your license entitlement.  Once you have this, you are good to go and the SW will run as expected.  If you lose your network connection, the SW has a 14-day heartbeat that will enable you to work offline for 14 days.  I know that some folks would prefer to never have to connect, but this is required to support a monthly subscription model that can be selectively enabled and disabled when you use the SW (so you only pay when you use it).  The total cost of ownership for those folks using it less than a few weeks a year will thus be substantially lower and still enables you to access the full software for less money.  <Insert revolt here>  image

 

WRT to "what happens if autodesk decides to one day just shut off the license server?" ...ok, sure, that's possible, but so is a reality TV star becoming President of the..cough...nevermind, bad example.

 

Point is, that's a pretty remote possibility (think: time travel and alien invasions) and it wouldn't benefit us *at all* to upset the users we just spent real money hoping to bring into autodesk and earn their business.  As the guy with both development and P&L for the product, I can tell you that it's counterintuitive and wouldn't benefit us at all.  We know this.  We make SW used by governments, movie studios, game developers, MEs, Civil Engineers, machinists, etc. and you can bet that shutting down a license server is not to our benefit in any of these categories.  To demonstrate this behavior in one category, without a path for user SW and data, calls into question ALL of our tools' viability under this model.  Not helpful.

 

Now...a question was raised about "but what if I drop my subscription and I want my data".  Awesome, the data is yours and lives on your machine.  And for SW that stores data in the cloud (we have some of these) we always provide a path to your data.  If this again fails with one product, it puts all of the others up for discussion.  Again, not helpful.  (Read:  strategy = doomed).

 

"So what about needing an entitlement for the freeware to open the data I created in another version (a *paid* version) and reading it?  What if I want access and I dont want the 14-day time out?"

 

So here's the deal...We can do better here.  So we will.  Here's my commitment to the group here for freeware that ensures you always have a license that you can fall back on without need of internet connection *except when you first install it* (which after all, you would have had to get it in the first place):  in version 8.1 or 8.0.1 or whathaveyou (let's call it 'a future release'), if you install the SW and authenticate once, we'll remove the timer req.  So what I'm saying another way is, the freeware will require you to login the first time to get your license, but if you log out beyond that, you're good.  You got your entitlement and you can use it freely without connection.

 

Caveat:  to install an update, you will need to login.  The update server (which issues the new version...e.g. 8.1 or 8.2. or 8.0.1, etc.) requires that you login and get the update, but beyond that, logout.  Thus if you want to go off-grid in a mountain cabin somewhere, get your license at Starbucks (blagh! I understand they have 'free' wifi, but no frappucinos!  ...that stuff is bad for you) then get your license and go on your merry way up to the snow drenched peaks.  When you hear from the other mountaineers or your local yodeler that a new version of EAGLE is available...download, login, get your license, get your 'decaf double-pump vanilla non-fat latte macchiato' and head back up the slopes.

 

Point being, we can do the freeware better.  So we will.

 

Hope this is clear.  Let us know if you have questions!

 

Best regards,

 

Matt Berggren

Director - Autodesk

@technolomaniac

hackaday.io/matt

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Top Replies

  • COMPACT
    COMPACT over 8 years ago in reply to autodeskguest +4
    Not to worry, it's back to the Drawing board for me.
  • shabaz
    shabaz over 8 years ago +3
    Hi Matt, When will the EAGLE Maker version (or another solution for hobbiests) be v8-ready? I see the subscription for 'EAGLE Standard' and 'EAGLE Premium' are now available on the website, but not EAGLE…
  • albertovignati
    albertovignati over 8 years ago in reply to techsupport +3
    Il 21/02/2017 22:54, Ed Robledo ha scritto: The customers are the sole driving force to the improvements to EAGLE. Some of these 'wants' take time to be done right, that's the reason they were not done…
Parents
  • Joop14
    Joop14 over 8 years ago

    http://www.altium.com/eagle-switch/altium-designer/

     

    It was just a matter of time...

     

    --

    EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

     

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  • rachaelp
    rachaelp over 8 years ago in reply to Joop14

    Joop14 wrote:

     

    http://www.altium.com/eagle-switch/altium-designer/

     

    It was just a matter of time...

     

    --

    EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

     

     

    I have to think that not many EAGLE users would be in a position to take up that offer. Even with the 40% off its going to be over $5000 and that only comes with one year of support and updates. After the first year you'd need to pay another $1500/year for a maintenance contract for support and updates. If you don't keep up on maintenance payments you'd likely be stung for back payments if you ever did need to update so realistically, most professional users are going to want to take that option rather than risk getting stuck with a problem and having to find a lot of money to get back onto maintenance in a hurry.

     

    The people who will go for this would be those who were considering it anyway because they regularly do high end boards and the additional features of Altium would be a benefit but the full price was too much for them to swallow. For the majority of smaller companies the cost of Altium and the ongoing support cost is still likely too much. Yes Altium has some really nice features but EAGLE's really easy to use and can do moderately complex boards quickly and easy enough such that the step up to Altium isn't justified by the cost. If EAGLE adds better routing features then this need even for high end boards may be reduced.

     

    So for the $500/year for an EAGLE Premium subscription, I could buy this for at least 10 years for the equivalent of the promotional price of Altium and for that I get 10 years of support. If I factor in the cost of maintenance I could have 4 EAGLE seats for the same price as 1 Altium seat in that 10 year period. Now, I know there is an issue with no perpetual license but in one of Matt Berggrens posts he stated that they would give an equivalent v7 license to fall back on with v8 subscriptions and a promise to ensure that a design could always be saved in a completely v7 compliant format so we then have a way to use EAGLE perpetually (See here: https://www.element14.com/community/thread/58485/l/eagle-license-recommendat-ion)

     

    Best Regards,

     

    Rachael

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  • geralds
    geralds over 8 years ago in reply to rachaelp

    Hi,

     

    Gerald Schwarz wrote:

     

    Yes, DIN A4 with all layers, ok, but minimum 8 layers (will say in business quoting: "half of the full", "fifty / fifty chance" )

    because you have power planes for complex chips with more then one power voltages, also complex routing with the pin hungry chips.

    FPGAs, µProcessors with 1000 pins or so, are now nearly standard.

    So what we are proposing is an intermediate "Standard Plus" which would do DIN A4 size up to 8-layers for somewhere between the Standard and Premium license costs? I think that would be fair. Lets see if anybody from Autodesk is reading and whether they will consider it

     

    Even with large FPGA's and uProcessors you can do an awful lot in 8-layers, even less layers sometimes. You can usually construct all the required power fills required to power a device without needing a whole layer for each if you are careful how you split the planes out to ensure you don't leave high speed signals running over splits in planes and messing up their signal integrity. It can take a bit of thought but its doable.

    Yes, also agree. With that we can live. Big projects are other pair of shoes.

     

    Unfortunately I don't think this is going to ever change no matter how much you argue against it. As I said, I don't see it as a huge problem as I will just either budget to keep an active subscription (whether I decide to use the budget or not) when I go to v8 (I am not going to yet) or just fall back to v7. I'm going to regularly ensure I can take my designs backwards once I go to v8 so it's never going to be an issue for me. I might even automate the process so it's all done for me!

    I also hope that Autodesk read this.

    I feel that we have just 14 days after the disaster to finishing all open projects also saving our files and changing to an other tool.

     

    Best Regards,

    Gerald

    ---

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  • rachaelp
    rachaelp over 8 years ago in reply to geralds

    Hi Gerald,

     

    Gerald Schwarz wrote:

    Gerald Schwarz wrote:

     

    Yes, DIN A4 with all layers, ok, but minimum 8 layers (will say in business quoting: "half of the full", "fifty / fifty chance" )

    because you have power planes for complex chips with more then one power voltages, also complex routing with the pin hungry chips.

    FPGAs, µProcessors with 1000 pins or so, are now nearly standard.

    So what we are proposing is an intermediate "Standard Plus" which would do DIN A4 size up to 8-layers for somewhere between the Standard and Premium license costs? I think that would be fair. Lets see if anybody from Autodesk is reading and whether they will consider it

     

    Even with large FPGA's and uProcessors you can do an awful lot in 8-layers, even less layers sometimes. You can usually construct all the required power fills required to power a device without needing a whole layer for each if you are careful how you split the planes out to ensure you don't leave high speed signals running over splits in planes and messing up their signal integrity. It can take a bit of thought but its doable.

    Yes, also agree. With that we can live. Big projects are other pair of shoes.

    Ok, that's good. Lets see if they are reading and what they say then.

     

    Gerald Schwarz wrote:

    Unfortunately I don't think this is going to ever change no matter how much you argue against it. As I said, I don't see it as a huge problem as I will just either budget to keep an active subscription (whether I decide to use the budget or not) when I go to v8 (I am not going to yet) or just fall back to v7. I'm going to regularly ensure I can take my designs backwards once I go to v8 so it's never going to be an issue for me. I might even automate the process so it's all done for me!

    I also hope that Autodesk read this.

    I feel that we have just 14 days after the disaster to finishing all open projects also saving our files and changing to an other tool.

    You see that's where I think you are being too pessimistic. If you can revert to an existing v6/v7 licence and open your design and it be fully editable then you aren't in any difficult situation. If they were to change things so the required call back period for the v8 subscription was linked to the length of your subscription would that alleviate your concerns? I don't know if this is something they would consider though.

     

    Best Regards,

     

    Rachael

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  • albertovignati
    albertovignati over 8 years ago in reply to rachaelp

    Hi Rachael,

     

    Il 22/02/2017 14:12, rachaelp ha scritto:

     

    Gerald Schwarz wrote:

    Unfortunately I don't think this is going to ever change no matter how much you argue against it. As I said, I don't see it as a huge problem as I will just either budget to keep an active subscription (whether I decide to use the budget or not) when I go to v8 (I am not going to yet) or just fall back to v7. I'm going to regularly ensure I can take my designs backwards once I go to v8 so it's never going to be an issue for me. I might even automate the process so it's all done for me!

    I also hope that Autodesk read this.

    I feel that we have just 14 days after the disaster to finishing all open projects also saving our files and changing to an other tool.

    You see that's where I think you are being too pessimistic. If you can revert to an existing v6/v7 licence and open your design and it be fully editable then you aren't in any difficult situation. If they were to change things so the required call back period for the v8 subscription was linked to the length of your subscription would that alleviate your concerns? I don't know if this is something they would consider though.

     

     

    you are hoping that it is always possible to revert to an older version

    (I have a full 6.6 pro license, schematiclayoutautorouter), but this

    is an hope, not neccessarly a truth. Please, consider a scenario in

    which you need to maintain a big project for a long time and for some

    reason (dismissions, incompatibilities, lack of support etc.) the old

    design is no longer editable and also it is not possible to revert it to

    a v6/7 format. This is an atomic explosion: you can not access to your

    data. It is possible that older subscription are no longer

    available/supported (obsolete), newest are not fully compatible and

    perpetual v6/7 are too obsolete.

    This can easily happen if revenues will be not enought and Autodesk will

    decide to stop Eagle and no one will buy the "Cadsoft" division. They

    are trying an experiment and the success is not guaranteed. They have

    taken into account to lose customers like me, if 95% of customers are

    like me the experiment will fail.

    In such scenario you can cope if you have, for example, the release you

    used at that time in a virtual machine. In a perpetual model this works,

    in a subscription model not. Said that, I can not accept a license model

    in which the software functions expire. I can accept a maintenance model

    because the software never expires, I lose only the right to upgrade and

    the support, not functionalities. I have some tools in a maintenance

    model: if I stop the maintenance and after a while I will decide to

    restart, I will have to recover the lack of maintenance period, which is

    expensive, at limit I will have to pay the full license price, but I

    never and never lose the functionalities of the software, never. This is

    a very big worth, this is vital for me.

    Why Autodesk refuses this schema? Revenues are similar... They want to

    "got married" you with their products: if you decide to change the tool

    you will have to pay for maintaining the old projects: you will have to

    pay twice!

    I am satisfied of Eagle, but if nothing changes, I will have to switch

    to an alternative. This only and only and only due to the new license

    model.

     

    Kind regards

     

    Alberto

     

     

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  • rachaelp
    rachaelp over 8 years ago in reply to albertovignati

    Alberto Vignati wrote:

     

    Hi Rachael,

     

    Il 22/02/2017 14:12, rachaelp ha scritto:

     

    Gerald Schwarz wrote:

    Unfortunately I don't think this is going to ever change no matter how much you argue against it. As I said, I don't see it as a huge problem as I will just either budget to keep an active subscription (whether I decide to use the budget or not) when I go to v8 (I am not going to yet) or just fall back to v7. I'm going to regularly ensure I can take my designs backwards once I go to v8 so it's never going to be an issue for me. I might even automate the process so it's all done for me!

    I also hope that Autodesk read this.

    I feel that we have just 14 days after the disaster to finishing all open projects also saving our files and changing to an other tool.

    You see that's where I think you are being too pessimistic. If you can revert to an existing v6/v7 licence and open your design and it be fully editable then you aren't in any difficult situation. If they were to change things so the required call back period for the v8 subscription was linked to the length of your subscription would that alleviate your concerns? I don't know if this is something they would consider though.

     

     

    you are hoping that it is always possible to revert to an older version (I have a full 6.6 pro license, schematiclayoutautorouter), but this is an hope, not neccessarly a truth.

     

    Nope, I am not relying on any hope of backwards compatibility with v7. Please read all my post. I will regularly check things go backwards to my perpetual v7 license and if that ever breaks I will be straight onto Autodesk to get it resolved. There is no hope, only certainty. If at any point a v8 update ceases to be enable me to go back to v7 I will not use that update until it's resolved. Simple. I have v7 forever, I have a plan to mitigate backwards compatibility and I am happy with it.

     

    Alberto Vignati wrote:

     

    Please, consider a scenario in which you need to maintain a big project for a long time and for some reason (dismissions, incompatibilities, lack of support etc.) the old design is no longer editable and also it is not possible to revert it to a v6/7 format. This is an atomic explosion: you can not access to your data. It is possible that older subscription are no longer available/supported (obsolete), newest are not fully compatible and perpetual v6/7 are too obsolete.

     

    Yes I understand the argument but I think I have this covered. I agree, just being able to open up the exact version of EAGLE I used and know it will work forever is by far the preferable option but I think my way of mitigating the risk is enough such that if I was ever in this situation I could revert to my old v7 license.

     

    At the end of the day, for me this licensing change is far less horrible/evil than the flexlm style licensing Farnell tried to do to EAGLE which I assume was to introduce a maintenance system. I hate flexlm type licensing as it means it's not usually possible to legitimately use your license on multiple machines (not simultaneously) without having an annoying dongle situation to provide node locking for this (I don't want node locking and dongles are a failure point. You can lose a dongle or it could stop working and you'd be stuffed until you could get a new dongle. I've seen this before and it usually happens when you have a critical deadline....) or a network license server which makes it impossible to take your laptop away somewhere and still use your license unless that was also hosting your license server too, in which case if you are away and your laptop got stolen, whoops you can't use your EAGLE again on your main network until you've rebuilt a new license server.... It all gets annoying very quickly with flexlm style licensing and to me risks much more down time so the current online activation seems much less of a pain.

     

    Don't get me wrong, I would prefer to be able to have the ability to make the current subscription version permanent (maybe with a final payment to convert the license) if I ended the subscription but that isn't currently an option so I am not going to worry about it as I can mitigate the risks in other ways.

     

    Best Regards,

     

    Rachael

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  • omikron
    omikron over 8 years ago in reply to rachaelp

    I cannot pay every year for software I use for no profit.

    Maybe people who design PCBs for money can pay it but I can't.

    Eagle is killed by Autodesk..

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  • rachaelp
    rachaelp over 8 years ago in reply to omikron

    Tomas Franke wrote:

     

    I cannot pay every year for software I use for no profit.

    Maybe people who design PCBs for money can pay it but I can't.

    Eagle is killed by Autodesk..

    Hi Tomas,

     

    I agree with you here, assuming your requirements are greater than those of the available freeware license, there should at least be an equivalent non-commercial license at very low cost equivalent to the previous maker license. There currently isn't an option at that end which is unfortunate as I think having such a license would help a lot of people out and stop them leaving for KiCAD. I guess we'll have to wait and see if Autodesk decide to do anything else on the licensing front.

     

    Best Regards,

     

    Rachael

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 8 years ago in reply to rachaelp

    rachaelp wrote on Wed, 22 February 2017 00:45

    I'm hoping once the dust settles some of the original long time members

    of these forums will start to visit again.... I hope so, their experience

    is valuable and their help was always appreciated....

     

    I share that hope, but it isn't usually the way of these things.  We all

    returned last time after they reverted the license scheme, but...

     

    Quote:

    I'm hoping Jorge, Ed and Richard (haven't seen him on here for a

    while!) will be around for the foreseeable future so it's not all change.

    I suspect any new tech support people will be on the Autodesk official

    forums rather than here though.

     

    Richard seems to be hanging around in the

    https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-deutsch/bd-p/3558.

     

    Speaking of the official forums, should we start a lottery for when the

    nntp servers will be shut off?

    --

    EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

     

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 8 years ago in reply to rachaelp

    rachaelp wrote on Wed, 22 February 2017 00:45

    I'm hoping once the dust settles some of the original long time members

    of these forums will start to visit again.... I hope so, their experience

    is valuable and their help was always appreciated....

     

    I share that hope, but it isn't usually the way of these things.  We all

    returned last time after they reverted the license scheme, but...

     

    Quote:

    I'm hoping Jorge, Ed and Richard (haven't seen him on here for a

    while!) will be around for the foreseeable future so it's not all change.

    I suspect any new tech support people will be on the Autodesk official

    forums rather than here though.

     

    Richard seems to be hanging around in the

    https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-deutsch/bd-p/3558.

     

    Speaking of the official forums, should we start a lottery for when the

    nntp servers will be shut off?

    --

    EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

     

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 8 years ago in reply to autodeskguest

    Hey Morten,

     

    It's nice to hear from you glad you are still around here lurking. I

    know there is a lot of unknowns and fear right now.

     

    I know I've written this like a million times at this point but remember

    that you can subscribe for a month at a minimum so the cost to try out

    the new features isn't that bad (Full 16 layer version of EAGLE for

    $65.00 for one month).

     

    The new forum from Autodesk, is very nice. Definitely a lot better than

    E-14 but I know that's not saying much. When I first started using it,

    kicked me out a few times but I could still post and respond so not a

    big deal. I encourage you to check it out when you have a chance( 16

    layer board, wow).

     

    We really value Morten and all the users like him. I figure that right

    now most of our experienced users are waiting to see how this all pans

    out and I respect that, in your position I would do the same thing.

     

    Ed and I are still here and we intend to be here for the foreseeable

    future(in Rachel's terms).

     

    Let us know if there's anything  we can do for you.

     

    Best Regards,

    Jorge Garcia

     

     

    --

    We have a new forum here <http://forums.autodesk.com>

     

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 8 years ago in reply to autodeskguest

    Hey Morten,

     

    It's nice to hear from you glad you are still around here lurking. I

    know there is a lot of unknowns and fear right now.

     

    I know I've written this like a million times at this point but remember

    that you can subscribe for a month at a minimum so the cost to try out

    the new features isn't that bad (Full 16 layer version of EAGLE for

    $65.00 for one month).

     

    The new forum from Autodesk, is very nice. Definitely a lot better than

    E-14 but I know that's not saying much. When I first started using it,

    kicked me out a few times but I could still post and respond so not a

    big deal. I encourage you to check it out when you have a chance( 16

    layer board, wow).

     

    We really value Morten and all the users like him. I figure that right

    now most of our experienced users are waiting to see how this all pans

    out and I respect that, in your position I would do the same thing.

     

    Ed and I are still here and we intend to be here for the foreseeable

    future(in Rachel's terms).

     

    Let us know if there's anything  we can do for you.

     

    Best Regards,

    Jorge Garcia

     

     

    --

    We have a new forum here <http://forums.autodesk.com>

     

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 8 years ago in reply to autodeskguest

    Hey Morten,

     

    It's nice to hear from you glad you are still around here lurking. I

    know there is a lot of unknowns and fear right now.

     

    I know I've written this like a million times at this point but remember

    that you can subscribe for a month at a minimum so the cost to try out

    the new features isn't that bad (Full 16 layer version of EAGLE for

    $65.00 for one month).

     

    The new forum from Autodesk, is very nice. Definitely a lot better than

    E-14 but I know that's not saying much. When I first started using it,

    kicked me out a few times but I could still post and respond so not a

    big deal. I encourage you to check it out when you have a chance( 16

    layer board, wow).

     

    We really value Morten and all the users like him. I figure that right

    now most of our experienced users are waiting to see how this all pans

    out and I respect that, in your position I would do the same thing.

     

    Ed and I are still here and we intend to be here for the foreseeable

    future(in Rachel's terms).

     

    Let us know if there's anything  we can do for you.

     

    Best Regards,

    Jorge Garcia

     

     

    --

    We have a new forum here <http://forums.autodesk.com>

     

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