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EAGLE User Chat (English) Eagle v8 licensing...
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  • eagle
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  • freeware
  • 8.0
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Eagle v8 licensing...

technolomaniac
technolomaniac over 9 years ago

Hi All --

 

Moving this to a separate thread so it doesn't get lost in the ether.  Here's my two cents on licensing and I'd love your feedback:

 

Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription and the EAGLE paid license will require that you install the SW and then generate an account to retrieve your license entitlement.  Once you have this, you are good to go and the SW will run as expected.  If you lose your network connection, the SW has a 14-day heartbeat that will enable you to work offline for 14 days.  I know that some folks would prefer to never have to connect, but this is required to support a monthly subscription model that can be selectively enabled and disabled when you use the SW (so you only pay when you use it).  The total cost of ownership for those folks using it less than a few weeks a year will thus be substantially lower and still enables you to access the full software for less money.  <Insert revolt here>  image

 

WRT to "what happens if autodesk decides to one day just shut off the license server?" ...ok, sure, that's possible, but so is a reality TV star becoming President of the..cough...nevermind, bad example.

 

Point is, that's a pretty remote possibility (think: time travel and alien invasions) and it wouldn't benefit us *at all* to upset the users we just spent real money hoping to bring into autodesk and earn their business.  As the guy with both development and P&L for the product, I can tell you that it's counterintuitive and wouldn't benefit us at all.  We know this.  We make SW used by governments, movie studios, game developers, MEs, Civil Engineers, machinists, etc. and you can bet that shutting down a license server is not to our benefit in any of these categories.  To demonstrate this behavior in one category, without a path for user SW and data, calls into question ALL of our tools' viability under this model.  Not helpful.

 

Now...a question was raised about "but what if I drop my subscription and I want my data".  Awesome, the data is yours and lives on your machine.  And for SW that stores data in the cloud (we have some of these) we always provide a path to your data.  If this again fails with one product, it puts all of the others up for discussion.  Again, not helpful.  (Read:  strategy = doomed).

 

"So what about needing an entitlement for the freeware to open the data I created in another version (a *paid* version) and reading it?  What if I want access and I dont want the 14-day time out?"

 

So here's the deal...We can do better here.  So we will.  Here's my commitment to the group here for freeware that ensures you always have a license that you can fall back on without need of internet connection *except when you first install it* (which after all, you would have had to get it in the first place):  in version 8.1 or 8.0.1 or whathaveyou (let's call it 'a future release'), if you install the SW and authenticate once, we'll remove the timer req.  So what I'm saying another way is, the freeware will require you to login the first time to get your license, but if you log out beyond that, you're good.  You got your entitlement and you can use it freely without connection.

 

Caveat:  to install an update, you will need to login.  The update server (which issues the new version...e.g. 8.1 or 8.2. or 8.0.1, etc.) requires that you login and get the update, but beyond that, logout.  Thus if you want to go off-grid in a mountain cabin somewhere, get your license at Starbucks (blagh! I understand they have 'free' wifi, but no frappucinos!  ...that stuff is bad for you) then get your license and go on your merry way up to the snow drenched peaks.  When you hear from the other mountaineers or your local yodeler that a new version of EAGLE is available...download, login, get your license, get your 'decaf double-pump vanilla non-fat latte macchiato' and head back up the slopes.

 

Point being, we can do the freeware better.  So we will.

 

Hope this is clear.  Let us know if you have questions!

 

Best regards,

 

Matt Berggren

Director - Autodesk

@technolomaniac

hackaday.io/matt

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  • Joop14
    Joop14 over 9 years ago

    http://www.altium.com/eagle-switch/altium-designer/

     

    It was just a matter of time...

     

    --

    EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

     

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  • rachaelp
    rachaelp over 9 years ago in reply to Joop14

    Joop14 wrote:

     

    http://www.altium.com/eagle-switch/altium-designer/

     

    It was just a matter of time...

     

    --

    EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

     

     

    I have to think that not many EAGLE users would be in a position to take up that offer. Even with the 40% off its going to be over $5000 and that only comes with one year of support and updates. After the first year you'd need to pay another $1500/year for a maintenance contract for support and updates. If you don't keep up on maintenance payments you'd likely be stung for back payments if you ever did need to update so realistically, most professional users are going to want to take that option rather than risk getting stuck with a problem and having to find a lot of money to get back onto maintenance in a hurry.

     

    The people who will go for this would be those who were considering it anyway because they regularly do high end boards and the additional features of Altium would be a benefit but the full price was too much for them to swallow. For the majority of smaller companies the cost of Altium and the ongoing support cost is still likely too much. Yes Altium has some really nice features but EAGLE's really easy to use and can do moderately complex boards quickly and easy enough such that the step up to Altium isn't justified by the cost. If EAGLE adds better routing features then this need even for high end boards may be reduced.

     

    So for the $500/year for an EAGLE Premium subscription, I could buy this for at least 10 years for the equivalent of the promotional price of Altium and for that I get 10 years of support. If I factor in the cost of maintenance I could have 4 EAGLE seats for the same price as 1 Altium seat in that 10 year period. Now, I know there is an issue with no perpetual license but in one of Matt Berggrens posts he stated that they would give an equivalent v7 license to fall back on with v8 subscriptions and a promise to ensure that a design could always be saved in a completely v7 compliant format so we then have a way to use EAGLE perpetually (See here: https://www.element14.com/community/thread/58485/l/eagle-license-recommendat-ion)

     

    Best Regards,

     

    Rachael

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  • drkirkby
    drkirkby over 9 years ago in reply to rachaelp

    rachaelp wrote:


     

    I have to think that not many EAGLE users would be in a position to take up that offer. Even with the 40% off its going to be over $5000 and that only comes with one year of support and updates.

     

    Best Regards,

     

    Rachael

    Since the special price is only for Eagle users, I wonder how Altrium are going to verify if someone has a valid Eagle license?

     

    Eagle users moving to KiCad seems a much more likely move, as Eagle and Altrium are aimed at different markets.

     

    My accountant suggested some time ago that I used KashFlow

    https://www.kashflow.com/

    for my company accounts. KashFlow is online based, so you only have access when their servers are working, and whilst they support the product. You don't install any software on the PC.

    Basically, you can are stuffed if KashFlow goes belly up. I would not use software like that. I would not mind paying a monthly fee for access to a game, but PCB software or accounts software are definitely not something I would consider renting.

     

    My accountant also suggested another package (I forget which), which just runs on a PC. In the end we agreed to use GnuCash

     

    https://www.gnucash.org/

     

    which is free and open-source.

     

    Dave

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  • rachaelp
    rachaelp over 9 years ago in reply to brentbolton

    Brent Bolton wrote on Wed, 22 February 2017 22:13

    Hi Rachael

     

    Brett or Brent, no problem. Anyway, as always the devil is in the

    details. While I could do as you say, a more typical usage scenario for

    me is that I don't use the tool for a couple of months, then a customer

    calls me up with a question or a minor change and I need the tool for

    half an hour. It would be really annoying to have to go online and spend

    a half hour renewing for a half hour of work, not to mention paying for a

    full month. The bottom line for me is that you need to listen to your

    customers. If only half the people on this forum are screaming about the

    license, and I think it's more than that, then you've made that amount of

    your customer base angry at you. That's never a good business strategy. I

    plan to stay angry with Autodesk until they change the license, and maybe

    after that if it doesn't happen promptly. I should also remind you that

    designers like me don't necessarily stay in one CAD silo. I do mechanical

    design as well, have used Autodesk tools, and used to have a favorable

    opinion of the company. Not any more. After Cadence bought OrCAD and

    screwed me over on a subsequent project, also over a license issue, I

    made it company policy to never do business with Cadence. That policy

    still stands. Would Autodesk like to join that party?

     

    --

    To view any images and attachments in this post, visit:

    https://www.element14.com/community/message/216487

     

     

    Hi Brent,

     

    Just a quick FYI, I don't work for Autodesk.... It seems I am getting

    mistaken for an Autodesk employee a lot these days.... I am an EAGLE user

    just like you. I just happen to not mind the new licensing so much....

     

    Best Regards,

     

    Rachael

     

    --

    EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

     

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  • rachaelp
    rachaelp over 9 years ago in reply to brentbolton

    Brent Bolton wrote on Wed, 22 February 2017 22:13

    Hi Rachael

     

    Brett or Brent, no problem. Anyway, as always the devil is in the

    details. While I could do as you say, a more typical usage scenario for

    me is that I don't use the tool for a couple of months, then a customer

    calls me up with a question or a minor change and I need the tool for

    half an hour. It would be really annoying to have to go online and spend

    a half hour renewing for a half hour of work, not to mention paying for a

    full month. The bottom line for me is that you need to listen to your

    customers. If only half the people on this forum are screaming about the

    license, and I think it's more than that, then you've made that amount of

    your customer base angry at you. That's never a good business strategy. I

    plan to stay angry with Autodesk until they change the license, and maybe

    after that if it doesn't happen promptly. I should also remind you that

    designers like me don't necessarily stay in one CAD silo. I do mechanical

    design as well, have used Autodesk tools, and used to have a favorable

    opinion of the company. Not any more. After Cadence bought OrCAD and

    screwed me over on a subsequent project, also over a license issue, I

    made it company policy to never do business with Cadence. That policy

    still stands. Would Autodesk like to join that party?

     

    --

    To view any images and attachments in this post, visit:

    https://www.element14.com/community/message/216487

     

     

    Hi Brent,

     

    Just a quick FYI, I don't work for Autodesk.... It seems I am getting

    mistaken for an Autodesk employee a lot these days.... I am an EAGLE user

    just like you. I just happen to not mind the new licensing so much....

     

    Best Regards,

     

    Rachael

     

    --

    EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

     

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  • brentbolton
    brentbolton over 9 years ago in reply to rachaelp

    Hi Rachael

     

    Brett or Brent, no problem. Anyway, as always the devil is in the details. While I could do as you say, a more typical usage scenario for me is that I don't use the tool for a couple of months, then a customer calls me up with a question or a minor change and I need the tool for half an hour. It would be really annoying to have to go online and spend a half hour renewing for a half hour of work, not to mention paying for a full month. The bottom line for me is that you need to listen to your customers. If only half the people on this forum are screaming about the license, and I think it's more than that, then you've made that amount of your customer base angry at you. That's never a good business strategy. I plan to stay angry with Autodesk until they change the license, and maybe after that if it doesn't happen promptly. I should also remind you that designers like me don't necessarily stay in one CAD silo. I do mechanical design as well, have used Autodesk tools, and used to have a favorable opinion of the company. Not any more. After Cadence bought OrCAD and screwed me over on a subsequent project, also over a license issue, I made it company policy to never do business with Cadence. That policy still stands. Would Autodesk like to join that party?

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  • rachaelp
    rachaelp over 9 years ago in reply to rachaelp

    rachaelp wrote on Wed, 22 February 2017 21:43

    Hi Brett,

     

     

    Hi Brent,

     

    I also apologise for calling you Brett in my last message!

     

    Best Regards,

     

    Rachael

    --

    EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

     

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  • rachaelp
    rachaelp over 9 years ago in reply to brentbolton

    Brent Bolton wrote on Wed, 22 February 2017 19:06

    I'm not a hobbyist, I design and build things for a living. As part of

    that I use lots of tool chains, not just my EagleCAD. I may go for a year

    or more without using a particular tool, but when I need one I want it

    available. If I had to pay a $500 annual subscription on every software

    tool I use I would quickly go out of business. A subscription license

    model fits a certain profile of user, no doubt. I don't fit that profile.

     

     

    Hi Brett,

     

    From what you are saying it actually sounds like the subscription fits you

    perfectly. When you don't need it you don't keep your subscription going

    but when you want it again you simply renew your subscription online at the

    level you need for the project you are about to undertake. You don't need

    to spend $500 per year to keep the subscription going if you aren't going

    to use it.... If you need it for a month or two ever year or so then it's

    only going to be costing you $65 to $130 when you need it assuming Premium

    or if you only need to do a small 4 layer board then, well it's only going

    to be $15 to $30, well short of the $500/year...

     

    Best Regards,

     

    Rachael

     

    --

    EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

     

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 9 years ago in reply to autodeskguest

    On 22.02.2017 18:07, Jorge Garcia wrote:

    The new forum from Autodesk, is very nice. Definitely a lot better than

    E-14 but I know that's not saying much.

    If it is better than E-14, then it certainly has a NNTP gateway, just

    as your forums have. Right?

    Forums without NNTP are too time-consuming to follow.

     

     

    Regards,

     

    Dietmar

     

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 9 years ago in reply to autodeskguest

    On 22.02.2017 18:07, Jorge Garcia wrote:

    The new forum from Autodesk, is very nice. Definitely a lot better than

    E-14 but I know that's not saying much.

    If it is better than E-14, then it certainly has a NNTP gateway, just

    as your forums have. Right?

    Forums without NNTP are too time-consuming to follow.

     

     

    Regards,

     

    Dietmar

     

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  • brentbolton
    brentbolton over 9 years ago in reply to techsupport

    I'm not a hobbyist, I design and build things for a living. As part of that I use lots of tool chains, not just my EagleCAD. I may go for a year or more without using a particular tool, but when I need one I want it available. If I had to pay a $500 annual subscription on every software tool I use I would quickly go out of business. A subscription license model fits a certain profile of user, no doubt. I don't fit that profile. There is absolutely no reason that Autodesk can't offer both subscription and perpetual licenses, other than they must know that most EagleCAD users would opt for the latter and their Eagle division would not be able to extract maximum revenue. Sad, as everyone knows what eventually happens to businesses that prioritize their revenue stream over serving their customers. Frankly a pcb design tool that doesn't do simulation is not bleeding edge technology and hasn't been for a long time. It doesn't matter how much you "improve" it, it's still just a schematic capture and layout tool, perhaps with a prettier UI. If you want to add exotic simulation capabilities to that, great, but get your revenues from things like that that are truly improvements.


    Brent

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  • techsupport
    techsupport over 9 years ago in reply to omikron

    I cannot pay every year for software I use for no profit.

    Maybe people who design PCBs for money can pay it but I can't.

    Eagle is killed by Autodesk..

    Hobbies always incur into some expense, so having a commercially supported program with a team of developers and support personnel providing the best answer possible to your inquiries for a modest subscription of around $100/year doesn't seem like a really big ask. You can use a monthly subscription and only update your entitlement when necessary.  But I guess the ball is in our court now, its a matter of proving to the community how committed to continue making EAGLE a great product image.

    Best Regards,

    Ed

    EAGLE Forums

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 9 years ago in reply to autodeskguest

    Hey Morten,

     

    It's nice to hear from you glad you are still around here lurking. I

    know there is a lot of unknowns and fear right now.

     

    I know I've written this like a million times at this point but remember

    that you can subscribe for a month at a minimum so the cost to try out

    the new features isn't that bad (Full 16 layer version of EAGLE for

    $65.00 for one month).

     

    The new forum from Autodesk, is very nice. Definitely a lot better than

    E-14 but I know that's not saying much. When I first started using it,

    kicked me out a few times but I could still post and respond so not a

    big deal. I encourage you to check it out when you have a chance( 16

    layer board, wow).

     

    We really value Morten and all the users like him. I figure that right

    now most of our experienced users are waiting to see how this all pans

    out and I respect that, in your position I would do the same thing.

     

    Ed and I are still here and we intend to be here for the foreseeable

    future(in Rachel's terms).

     

    Let us know if there's anything  we can do for you.

     

    Best Regards,

    Jorge Garcia

     

     

    --

    We have a new forum here <http://forums.autodesk.com>

     

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 9 years ago in reply to autodeskguest

    Hey Morten,

     

    It's nice to hear from you glad you are still around here lurking. I

    know there is a lot of unknowns and fear right now.

     

    I know I've written this like a million times at this point but remember

    that you can subscribe for a month at a minimum so the cost to try out

    the new features isn't that bad (Full 16 layer version of EAGLE for

    $65.00 for one month).

     

    The new forum from Autodesk, is very nice. Definitely a lot better than

    E-14 but I know that's not saying much. When I first started using it,

    kicked me out a few times but I could still post and respond so not a

    big deal. I encourage you to check it out when you have a chance( 16

    layer board, wow).

     

    We really value Morten and all the users like him. I figure that right

    now most of our experienced users are waiting to see how this all pans

    out and I respect that, in your position I would do the same thing.

     

    Ed and I are still here and we intend to be here for the foreseeable

    future(in Rachel's terms).

     

    Let us know if there's anything  we can do for you.

     

    Best Regards,

    Jorge Garcia

     

     

    --

    We have a new forum here <http://forums.autodesk.com>

     

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 9 years ago in reply to autodeskguest

    On 2/23/2017 2:53 AM, Morten Leikvoll wrote:

    Let us know if there's anything  we can do for you.

     

    I could list a few, like comfort me, tell me why I should spend this

    money (or actually open the flow of money for an unknown period of time)

    when I already have v7. [The "already have v7 is important here] It will

    be a very expensive modular design block and soon obstacle avoidance

    (wich is cool, but not that important to me).

     

    Hey Morten,

     

    The reality is that it's your money, so don't feel like you have to part

    ways with it now if you are not fully convinced that it is going to be

    worth it.

     

    I see that so far the new features still aren't enough for you and

    that's cool. EAGLE's pace of development has increased greatly and it's

    not going to take a long time to get the features that have been

    promised in.

     

    Like I mentioned on the Autodesk Forums, it is now up to us to earn the

    business of our customers by improving EAGLE and adding features that

    will compel you to go subscription. That is our goal, and for whatever

    it's worth, despite the licensing change, I see EAGLE finally growing

    and getting the development that it has long deserved.

     

    The next few months are going to be interesting, and since you'll be

    checking in you'll be seeing it.

     

    Hang tight and as always let me know if there's anything else I can do

    for you.

     

    Best Regards,

    Jorge Garcia

     

     

     

    --

    We have a new forum here <http://forums.autodesk.com>

     

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 9 years ago in reply to autodeskguest

    On 22.02.2017 18:07, Jorge Garcia wrote:

    Hey Morten,

     

    It's nice to hear from you glad you are still around here lurking. I

    know there is a lot of unknowns and fear right now.

     

    I know I've written this like a million times at this point but remember

    that you can subscribe for a month at a minimum so the cost to try out

    the new features isn't that bad (Full 16 layer version of EAGLE for

    $65.00 for one month).

     

    If I weigh this up against what I already have in 7.7, I cant find this

    cost justifying much. I have to wait until there are alot of new

    features, and I know that will take time. It is kinda sad that I won't

    be in the loop to give feedback, because I know I have a lot of

    knowledge and great wishes for the eagle future, at least from the

    advanced user perspective. Anyway, subscribing for a single month is out

    of the question for my kind of use.

     

     

    The new forum from Autodesk, is very nice. Definitely a lot better than

    E-14 but I know that's not saying much. When I first started using it,

    kicked me out a few times but I could still post and respond so not a

    big deal. I encourage you to check it out when you have a chance( 16

    layer board, wow).

     

    I have been looking at it, and it looks "ok", but not better than nntp.

    There is too much space, too many images wanting your attention (ok,

    just a few, but still an infinite multiplum of none), no simple overview

    of all messages, too much empty space, too slow to open a message, ...

    If I spent more time analyzing, I could probably find more

    to whine about.

    16 layers yes, I was even considering using more. In fact Eagle can do

    that(!), because a lot of the layers are plain reference ground for

    impedance and signal integrity. Since I got no blind or buried vias, I

    could have used the same layer to generate multiple reference planes in

    the CAM processor (or my own gerber export ULP).

     

    We really value Morten and all the users like him. I figure that right

    now most of our experienced users are waiting to see how this all pans

    out and I respect that, in your position I would do the same thing.

     

    I don't know where your core business is, but imo eagle is a tool for

    low to middle end small-medium sized boards, and I have been challenging

    its functions for the professional end, so I don't see myself as the

    typical user. If it wasnt for the ULP support and my programming

    knowledge, I would probably looked around for alternatives.

     

    Ed and I are still here and we intend to be here for the foreseeable

    future(in Rachel's terms).

     

    I know you are. I hope to stay too. I'm pretty sure I will, but I can't

    promise you I won't look around. Early in this acquistition process, the

    pricing was the potential thing that scared me most, and my fears came

    through. Afaics, only the recurrent full pricing is a real option to me,

    and that seems to be a significant increase. Autodesk seems to want

    another payment for all the old functionality over again (remember I

    already have it), or they price the new functionality very high. The

    discount for old customers doesn't make a great impact.

     

    Let us know if there's anything  we can do for you.

     

    I could list a few, like comfort me, tell me why I should spend this

    money (or actually open the flow of money for an unknown period of time)

    when I already have v7. [The "already have v7 is important here] It will

    be a very expensive modular design block and soon obstacle avoidance

    (wich is cool, but not that important to me).

     

    Best Regards,

    Jorge Garcia

     

     

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 9 years ago in reply to autodeskguest

    On 22.02.2017 18:07, Jorge Garcia wrote:

    The new forum from Autodesk, is very nice. Definitely a lot better than

    E-14 but I know that's not saying much.

    If it is better than E-14, then it certainly has a NNTP gateway, just

    as your forums have. Right?

    Forums without NNTP are too time-consuming to follow.

     

     

    Regards,

     

    Dietmar

     

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 9 years ago in reply to autodeskguest

    On 22.02.2017 18:07, Jorge Garcia wrote:

    The new forum from Autodesk, is very nice. Definitely a lot better than

    E-14 but I know that's not saying much.

    If it is better than E-14, then it certainly has a NNTP gateway, just

    as your forums have. Right?

    Forums without NNTP are too time-consuming to follow.

     

     

    Regards,

     

    Dietmar

     

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