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Autodesk EAGLE
EAGLE User Chat (English) Eagle v8 licensing...
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  • eagle
  • license
  • freeware
  • 8.0
Related

Eagle v8 licensing...

technolomaniac
technolomaniac over 8 years ago

Hi All --

 

Moving this to a separate thread so it doesn't get lost in the ether.  Here's my two cents on licensing and I'd love your feedback:

 

Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription and the EAGLE paid license will require that you install the SW and then generate an account to retrieve your license entitlement.  Once you have this, you are good to go and the SW will run as expected.  If you lose your network connection, the SW has a 14-day heartbeat that will enable you to work offline for 14 days.  I know that some folks would prefer to never have to connect, but this is required to support a monthly subscription model that can be selectively enabled and disabled when you use the SW (so you only pay when you use it).  The total cost of ownership for those folks using it less than a few weeks a year will thus be substantially lower and still enables you to access the full software for less money.  <Insert revolt here>  image

 

WRT to "what happens if autodesk decides to one day just shut off the license server?" ...ok, sure, that's possible, but so is a reality TV star becoming President of the..cough...nevermind, bad example.

 

Point is, that's a pretty remote possibility (think: time travel and alien invasions) and it wouldn't benefit us *at all* to upset the users we just spent real money hoping to bring into autodesk and earn their business.  As the guy with both development and P&L for the product, I can tell you that it's counterintuitive and wouldn't benefit us at all.  We know this.  We make SW used by governments, movie studios, game developers, MEs, Civil Engineers, machinists, etc. and you can bet that shutting down a license server is not to our benefit in any of these categories.  To demonstrate this behavior in one category, without a path for user SW and data, calls into question ALL of our tools' viability under this model.  Not helpful.

 

Now...a question was raised about "but what if I drop my subscription and I want my data".  Awesome, the data is yours and lives on your machine.  And for SW that stores data in the cloud (we have some of these) we always provide a path to your data.  If this again fails with one product, it puts all of the others up for discussion.  Again, not helpful.  (Read:  strategy = doomed).

 

"So what about needing an entitlement for the freeware to open the data I created in another version (a *paid* version) and reading it?  What if I want access and I dont want the 14-day time out?"

 

So here's the deal...We can do better here.  So we will.  Here's my commitment to the group here for freeware that ensures you always have a license that you can fall back on without need of internet connection *except when you first install it* (which after all, you would have had to get it in the first place):  in version 8.1 or 8.0.1 or whathaveyou (let's call it 'a future release'), if you install the SW and authenticate once, we'll remove the timer req.  So what I'm saying another way is, the freeware will require you to login the first time to get your license, but if you log out beyond that, you're good.  You got your entitlement and you can use it freely without connection.

 

Caveat:  to install an update, you will need to login.  The update server (which issues the new version...e.g. 8.1 or 8.2. or 8.0.1, etc.) requires that you login and get the update, but beyond that, logout.  Thus if you want to go off-grid in a mountain cabin somewhere, get your license at Starbucks (blagh! I understand they have 'free' wifi, but no frappucinos!  ...that stuff is bad for you) then get your license and go on your merry way up to the snow drenched peaks.  When you hear from the other mountaineers or your local yodeler that a new version of EAGLE is available...download, login, get your license, get your 'decaf double-pump vanilla non-fat latte macchiato' and head back up the slopes.

 

Point being, we can do the freeware better.  So we will.

 

Hope this is clear.  Let us know if you have questions!

 

Best regards,

 

Matt Berggren

Director - Autodesk

@technolomaniac

hackaday.io/matt

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Top Replies

  • COMPACT
    COMPACT over 8 years ago in reply to autodeskguest +4
    Not to worry, it's back to the Drawing board for me.
  • shabaz
    shabaz over 8 years ago +3
    Hi Matt, When will the EAGLE Maker version (or another solution for hobbiests) be v8-ready? I see the subscription for 'EAGLE Standard' and 'EAGLE Premium' are now available on the website, but not EAGLE…
  • albertovignati
    albertovignati over 8 years ago in reply to techsupport +3
    Il 21/02/2017 22:54, Ed Robledo ha scritto: The customers are the sole driving force to the improvements to EAGLE. Some of these 'wants' take time to be done right, that's the reason they were not done…
  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 8 years ago in reply to Joop14

    Am 23.01.2017 um 08:36 schrieb Joop:

    On the contrary, that's very unlikely. If they pull the plug, they will

    sell it for sure.

     

    But who will be interested in buying a ruined product?

     

    If not, all their investments will be lost. When they sell it, they will

    get back

    at least a part of their money.

     

    If there is no buyer, this is a good reason to pull the plug some time

    sooner, to not let costs sum up.

     

    Rene

     

     

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  • rbtx99
    rbtx99 over 8 years ago in reply to autodeskguest

    DipTrace looks like a good replacement and the prise structure is not forbidding to small businesses. Video Guided Tour

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  • roycearnold
    roycearnold over 8 years ago

    Matt,

     

    I wanted to add my corporate opinion on the new subscription license being pursued by AutoDesk for Eagle and other products.  To be blunt, it is unacceptable to us.  We have multiple license of both AutoDesk Product Design Suite Ultimate (or whatever it is being called now) and Eagle Professional.  At this point, our licenses are perpetual and will remain so.  Why is the subscription model unacceptable?  It really boils down to control.  To a slightly lesser extent, these same arguments are applicable to the periodic phone home license approach.

     

    If we were to adopt AutoDesk's subscription model, we would in effect be handing the keys to accessing OUR information over to AutoDesk.  If we stop paying AutoDesk, we loose the ability to access and work with those files.  If AutoDesk has a technical difficulty, we could loose access.  If AutoDesk has a DDoS attach, we could loose access.  If AutoDesk decides that one or more of the products is no longer of interest to them, we could loose access.  If AutoDesk hires a Martin Shkreli who decides Eagle is not making enough money and raises the subscription price, we could loose access.  Since most of the products I'm discussing have either an actual or effective proprietary file format, any price increase with a subscription model could be seen from some view points as extortion like in nature.  These products are not like Microsoft Office, where if that were to happened, I could very likely open them in a alternate application and continue working with little to no problem (at least for the majority of uses).

     

    As a business owner, why would I ever hand over that degree of control to an outside entity.  To quote Jorge, our position on this is "non-negotiable".

     

    I would encourage AutoDesk to examine a solution for businesses that have a similar requirements.  While I remain hopefully, history (particularly with AutoDesk) has not given me any reason to be optimistic.  Now there is much more that I could add, but it would likely be in vain.  If there appears to be a genuine willingness to address these issues, then perhaps.

     

    I will close with the following, I STRONGLY encourage you and the support members to take your customers concerns with a more serious tone.  I really do not believe discussion of ski slopes and designer coffee has any place in these discussions (especially from AutoDesk personnel).  And the idea of mentioning the most charged US political situation in many peoples lifetimes seems ill advised in my opinion (and if you worked for me it would have just gotten you fired).  A large percentage of Eagle users are not even US based.  For those that are, you likely just offended a large number of them.

     

    Sincerely,

    Royce Arnold

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  • synfinatic
    synfinatic over 8 years ago in reply to roycearnold

    Well said Royce!

     

    Btw, your point of "what happens if Autodesk is DDoS'd" is actually a good point.  You may of heard about the huge DDoS's that attacked various sites a few months ago.  Apparently tens of thousands of cheap Chinese internet connected video cameras were infected and were used to generate the worlds largest distributed denial of service attacks (over 600Gbps!!) on certain sites.  It clogged up the Internet and a lot of web sites and end/users were hurt by the side-effects.  A security researcher named Brian Krebs figured out the back story:

     

    https://krebsonsecurity.com/2017/01/who-is-anna-senpai-the-mirai-worm-author/

     

     

     

     

     

    What's Minecraft?  A video game often played by children (think Legos but on your computer).  Turns out running the servers which power this game is good money (people making $50k/mo) and they'd pay for a DDoS of their competitor in hopes that it would drive customers off the competition and hopefully to them.

     

    Again, think about this: World's largest DDoS attack over a video game kids play!  If I were making my living off Eagle, I would be very hesitant to rely on a licensing scheme that is dependent on the Internet working reliably when it is proven that it can be effectively knocked out for tens of thousands of users over a video game.   

     

    Or what if AutoDesk is hacked like Sony was a few years ago and the hackers delete on the data on the license servers?  Even if they had backups, I bet it would take a few days before they had it working again.  Or what about those worms which infect your computer and then encrypt all your data and then black mail you into paying to decrypt it?  The more profitable and successful the company is, the bigger the target.

     

    I can see some hackers looking to make some $$$ start blackmailing companies like AutoDesk.  "Nice licensing server you've got there... would be a shame if something happened to it."

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 8 years ago in reply to rbtx99

    Angelos Gonias wrote on Mon, 23 January 2017 11:05

    DipTrace looks like a good replacement and the prise structure is not

    forbidding to small businesses. Video Guided Tour

    (http://diptrace.com/support/video-guided-tour/)

     

    --

    To view any images and attachments in this post, visit:

    https://www.element14.com/community/message/213899

     

    DipTrace looks impressive.

     

    --

    EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

     

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  • rick_b
    rick_b over 8 years ago

    For all intents and purposes, Matt Berggren has ceased posting here, so

    don't expect any replies. I copied my post from here to the Eagle forum at

    AutoCad and he is ignoring it there as well.

     

    https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/bd-p/3500

     

    Since Stratford Digital is no longer an Eagle reseller, there is no real

    financial incentive for James Morrison to continue to maintain this forum

    out of his own pocket.

     

    Jorge Garcia may well continue to provide support he for a while but the

    writing is on the wall.

     

    I really do hope there is enough long term resistance to their rental

    scheme to cause them to rethink this idea. As for me, I have a perpetual

    license to the make version and will use it until KiCad matures.

    --

    EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

     

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  • omega-5
    omega-5 over 8 years ago in reply to roycearnold

    For example, the whole weekend and even now:

    - LabVIEW - Licensing

    "We're sorry, ni.com is temporarily down for site maintenance."

     

    Freundliche Grüße / Kind regards

    Friedrich

    -


    ... use NNTP://news.cadsoft.de and a

    functional news reader like Thunderbird!

    ... or http://www.eaglecentral.ca

    browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums.

     

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  • roycearnold
    roycearnold over 8 years ago in reply to synfinatic

    Aaron,

     

    Thanks.  I'll admit I had to sit on my hands for a few days to avoid my initial knee jerk reaction.

     

    Yes, DDoS attacks represent a real and present danger to any product depending on the internet for operation.  Because of the nature of the attacks and the structure of the internet, they are extremely hard to defend against.  The bad news is they will only get worse.

     

    Hacking is indeed another real danger.

     

    While not currently in Eagle (not sure of 8 have not tried it and will not be given the current circumstances),  other AutoDesk products have embraced the cloud.  Just imagine all of the corporate data sitting on AutoDesk servers.  How secure are they?  What is the liability of AutoDesk in the event of a data breach?  Again, it all goes back to control.  Yeah, cloud services may offer some great options, but if I loose control, I'm not interested.  If not in Eagle 8, then I would bet it's already on an internal road map for a future version.  If they would only implement it so that it would function off a private server under our control and security, I would be interested. 

     

    Something to keep in mind is AutoDesk is a publicly traded company.  As such, it's primary customers are not the end users, but the shareholders.  While there is some overlap in the interests between the two groups, the primary customers will always win.  I'm not optimistic that this licensing issue will get resolved in a timely enough manner to prevent the majority of the damage.  AutoDesk has been pursuing this license scheme for a couple of years and I have seen no signs of it going away.   

     

    Royce

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  • rbtx99
    rbtx99 over 8 years ago in reply to rick_b

    > Since Stratford Digital is no longer an Eagle reseller, there is no real

    financial incentive for James Morrison to continue to maintain this forum

    out of his own pocket.


    That forum sounds like a place where lots of disgruntled EAGLE users would gather. DipTrace might want to sponsor that in exchange of advertising. image

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  • rbtx99
    rbtx99 over 8 years ago in reply to roycearnold

    Couldn't agree more.

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