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Autodesk EAGLE
EAGLE User Chat (English) Eagle v8 licensing...
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  • eagle
  • license
  • freeware
  • 8.0
Related

Eagle v8 licensing...

technolomaniac
technolomaniac over 8 years ago

Hi All --

 

Moving this to a separate thread so it doesn't get lost in the ether.  Here's my two cents on licensing and I'd love your feedback:

 

Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription and the EAGLE paid license will require that you install the SW and then generate an account to retrieve your license entitlement.  Once you have this, you are good to go and the SW will run as expected.  If you lose your network connection, the SW has a 14-day heartbeat that will enable you to work offline for 14 days.  I know that some folks would prefer to never have to connect, but this is required to support a monthly subscription model that can be selectively enabled and disabled when you use the SW (so you only pay when you use it).  The total cost of ownership for those folks using it less than a few weeks a year will thus be substantially lower and still enables you to access the full software for less money.  <Insert revolt here>  image

 

WRT to "what happens if autodesk decides to one day just shut off the license server?" ...ok, sure, that's possible, but so is a reality TV star becoming President of the..cough...nevermind, bad example.

 

Point is, that's a pretty remote possibility (think: time travel and alien invasions) and it wouldn't benefit us *at all* to upset the users we just spent real money hoping to bring into autodesk and earn their business.  As the guy with both development and P&L for the product, I can tell you that it's counterintuitive and wouldn't benefit us at all.  We know this.  We make SW used by governments, movie studios, game developers, MEs, Civil Engineers, machinists, etc. and you can bet that shutting down a license server is not to our benefit in any of these categories.  To demonstrate this behavior in one category, without a path for user SW and data, calls into question ALL of our tools' viability under this model.  Not helpful.

 

Now...a question was raised about "but what if I drop my subscription and I want my data".  Awesome, the data is yours and lives on your machine.  And for SW that stores data in the cloud (we have some of these) we always provide a path to your data.  If this again fails with one product, it puts all of the others up for discussion.  Again, not helpful.  (Read:  strategy = doomed).

 

"So what about needing an entitlement for the freeware to open the data I created in another version (a *paid* version) and reading it?  What if I want access and I dont want the 14-day time out?"

 

So here's the deal...We can do better here.  So we will.  Here's my commitment to the group here for freeware that ensures you always have a license that you can fall back on without need of internet connection *except when you first install it* (which after all, you would have had to get it in the first place):  in version 8.1 or 8.0.1 or whathaveyou (let's call it 'a future release'), if you install the SW and authenticate once, we'll remove the timer req.  So what I'm saying another way is, the freeware will require you to login the first time to get your license, but if you log out beyond that, you're good.  You got your entitlement and you can use it freely without connection.

 

Caveat:  to install an update, you will need to login.  The update server (which issues the new version...e.g. 8.1 or 8.2. or 8.0.1, etc.) requires that you login and get the update, but beyond that, logout.  Thus if you want to go off-grid in a mountain cabin somewhere, get your license at Starbucks (blagh! I understand they have 'free' wifi, but no frappucinos!  ...that stuff is bad for you) then get your license and go on your merry way up to the snow drenched peaks.  When you hear from the other mountaineers or your local yodeler that a new version of EAGLE is available...download, login, get your license, get your 'decaf double-pump vanilla non-fat latte macchiato' and head back up the slopes.

 

Point being, we can do the freeware better.  So we will.

 

Hope this is clear.  Let us know if you have questions!

 

Best regards,

 

Matt Berggren

Director - Autodesk

@technolomaniac

hackaday.io/matt

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Top Replies

  • COMPACT
    COMPACT over 8 years ago in reply to autodeskguest +4
    Not to worry, it's back to the Drawing board for me.
  • shabaz
    shabaz over 8 years ago +3
    Hi Matt, When will the EAGLE Maker version (or another solution for hobbiests) be v8-ready? I see the subscription for 'EAGLE Standard' and 'EAGLE Premium' are now available on the website, but not EAGLE…
  • albertovignati
    albertovignati over 8 years ago in reply to techsupport +3
    Il 21/02/2017 22:54, Ed Robledo ha scritto: The customers are the sole driving force to the improvements to EAGLE. Some of these 'wants' take time to be done right, that's the reason they were not done…
  • albertovignati
    albertovignati over 8 years ago

    Hi Matt,

     

    I am a long term Eagle user, and one force point of Egle is the (old) licence schema: I pay for a major release and I have the right to perpetual use of that release, when a new major release comes out I have the choice to to pay to migrate to that. This is an assurance for me.

    Other softwares I use have a similar licence schema: I pay for a maintenance yearly and I have the right to get the latest release and support; if I stop the maintenance, I still have the right to continue to fully use the latest release I got during the subscription period forever, but I loose the right to get support and newer releases both. I think this schema is good for me and for the softwarehouse (please, remember, I still pay yearly for the maintenace of such softwares!).

    About Eagle V8 I heard a dreadful news: the licence schema is solely for subscription: if I stop to pay I loose the right to use the software, since it just becomes a viewer. This news is sad for me (no assurance to get a perpetual right of use, even of an outdate release) and for you (you have lost a customer).

    I had planned to update my Eagle to the latest release this year, but you lead me to avoid the update and to evaluate alternatives.

    Why on the Earth do you like to punish your legal users?

    Why on the Earth do not you listen your users? I just read tons of comments and no one user is happy for your choice!

     

    Kind regards

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 8 years ago in reply to albertovignati

    On 25.01.2017 15:41, Alberto Vignati wrote:

    > if I stop the maintenance, I still have the right to continue to

    fully use the latest release I got during the subscription period

    forever, but I loose the right to get support and newer releases both.

    I think this schema is good for me and for the softwarehouse (please,

    remember, I still pay yearly for the maintenace of such softwares!).

     

    This is exactly the point that is unacceptable with the new model.

     

    Markus

     

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  • albertovignati
    albertovignati over 8 years ago in reply to autodeskguest

    Hi Jorge,

     

    believe me: the big problem is the licence schema, not the price! I pay for maintenance of other tools more and more than you ask to pay for Eagle, but if I stop to pay I DO NOT LOOSE THE RIGHT TO FULLY USE SUCH TOOLS!!!!

    I loose only the right to have updates, upgrades and support. Is it so difficult to understand?

     

    Kind regards

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  • albertovignati
    albertovignati over 8 years ago in reply to rachaelp

    Hi Rachael,

     

    "The big three ECAD vendors, Mentor, Altium and Cadence, all sell their tools with a requirement to also buy annual support which entitles you to assistance and to download updates and bug fixes. Without paying the large annual maintenance fee you get nothing and the licenses often become unavailable unless you also pay a one-off additional fee to convert to a perpetual archive license once you stop paying for maintenance. It's this last part that the current Autodesk model doesn't cover which is causing most issues for professional users. i.e. what do we do in 10-15 years time when we need to access an old design?"

     

    that's the point: Autodesk at this time does not offer a perpetual licence, for me this means that I still use the old version of Eagle for the old and current projects and for the new I will switch to an alternative which gives me the assurance to edit and manage a project forever. This is the lifecycle of my designs and the reason of which it is not acceptable the new schema. Unless Autodesk changes its policies this is what I will do.

     

    Best regards

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 8 years ago in reply to rachaelp

    rachaelp <noreply-391202@element14.com> wrote:

    Joop14 wrote:

     

    Not acceptable. The permanent license must work the same way like in older

    versions.

    No need to activate again when you replace your computer.

    What if they pull the plug from the activation server?

     

    I'm sorry but I think this is just paranoia. Autodesk are a huge

    company and have been providing products in other areas for many

    years. They aren't going to pull the server and they aren't going

    to go out of business an the foreseeable future I don't think so

    the risk of not being able to re-activate the permanent license is

    miniscule.

     

    Hewlett-Packard was also huge. They bought Palm. Brought out new devices.

     

    Then canned the new products at almost the same time that they were

    released and stopped support for older Palm users a short time thereafter.

     

    A "phone home" bfeature is unacceptable to those working in

    disconnected environments. Disconnected for security reasons

    (proprietary or other secrets) or because the only connection that

    they have to the Internet is sporadic or unreliable.

     

    AutoDesk *fails* sometimes. e.g. Fusion360 users were left twiddling

    their thumbs not so long ago when the server became unreachable to

    some. Machines dependent on Fusion 360 in the workflow could no

    longer make new stuff. AutoDesk appear to have relaxed the "offline

    mode" since then but this is what you get now:

     

    https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/fusion-360/troubleshooting/caas/sfdcarticles/sfdcarticles/How-to-work-in-offline-mode-in-Fusion-360.html

    Can I still work in offline mode?

     

    Yes, you can still continue to work on your designs in offline mode.

    Designs that are cached locally on your machine will be available

    from the data panel. You can work offline up to a period of two

    weeks if needed. After this, Fusion 360 will need to sync back

    online so that you can stay on the latest version.

     

    The licence scheme is brain-damaged even for those who accept the

    risks of connectivity. Causing the software to stop functioning when

    it cannot "phone home" is a show-stopper for those who don't see

    a perpetual existence of AutoDesk or its willingness to support

    Eagle in the years to come. There is not infrequently a need for

    designers of products to provide support for between 2 and 25 years

    with the median somewhere around 7 years; depending on product and

    markets.

     

    As far as I can tell, AutoDesk revenue streaming licence scheme for

    version 8.x can only guarantee to support Eagle users' needs for 14

    days; the longest phone-home interval.

     

    It's not paranoia to anticipate and to plan for the failure of

    things that can fail; it's called "engineering".

    --

    /"\ Bernd Felsche - Somewhere in Western Australia

    \ /  ASCII ribbon campaign | For every complex problem there is an

    X   against HTML mail     | answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.

    / \  and postings          |  --HL Mencken

     

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  • drkirkby
    drkirkby over 8 years ago

    Matt Berggren wrote:

     

    Hi All --

     

    Moving this to a separate thread so it doesn't get lost in the ether. Here's my two cents on licensing and I'd love your feedback:

     



    This licensing issue is sure being discussed in a number of places! All around the internet there seems to be moans about it.

     

    I've used a number of programs in the past for PCB design

     

    * EE Designer

    * Pads

     

    and at least one or two others. But I have not designed boards for some time.

     

    Looking now to start designing some boards again, this licensing model would not attract me in the least. In fact, it just re-enforces the view that many have, that Kicad KiCad EDA  , which now has backing from The European Organization for Nuclear Research (CERN) and is rapidly improving, is a better choice. The main group of people that seem to be considering the Eagle license are those with existing designs, that want to keep those designs. It is too time-consuming to move them to Kicad. But for anyone like myself, who is does not have any designs of this type, it just seems a no-brainer.

     

    I'm 53 years old, so over the years have come across quite a bit of license server based systems. My experience, and seems to be one shared by many, is that it is a pain for legitimate users, but  long-term does not stop people creating hacks. I was reading the time-nuts list, and someone on there wrote that he used to run a lab with Eagle, and often students would spend 20 minutes trying to get a license. I've had problems installing MATLAB and Mathematica - both due to license issues. Agilent's EMPro, and Anysys's HFSS have both caused me license headaches when a legitimate license was paid for.

     

    A number of posts on different forums are now suggesting unhappy Eagle customers donate to KiCad. Donations are via CERN  https://giving.web.cern.ch/civicrm/contribute/transact?reset=1&id=6  The number of donations in January 2017 is almost double the same number in January 2016. I wonder if the Autodesk changes on Eagle licensing have had an influence on KiCad funding? Autodesk might be getting a double hit here

     

    * Upset their own customers

    * Encouraging others to donate to a competitive product, that happens to be free.

     

    Dr. David Kirkby,

    Kirkby Microwave Ltd.

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 8 years ago in reply to albertovignati

    On Wed, 25 Jan 2017 16:46:53 GMT, Alberto Vignati

    <noreply-491088@element14.com> wrote:

     

    Hi Rachael,

     

    *It's this last part that the current Autodesk model doesn't cover which is causing most issues for professional users. i.e. what do

    we do in 10-15 years time when we need to access an old design*?+"

     

    Bingo!

     

    As coincidence would have it, I had a customer call me at 8AM this

    morning (Saturday) to tell me that his induction heater, S/N 02 from

    2009 had quit working.

     

    Fortunately I'd left all versions of Eagle I've ever owned installed

    on my computer so I could go into SVN, call up the old schematic and

    tell him what parts to change based on the diagnostic codes.

     

    I will NEVER EVER use software where I can't do that!

     

    John

    John DeArmond

    http://www.neon-john.com

    http://www.tnduction.com

    Tellico Plains, Occupied TN

    See website for email address

     

     

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 8 years ago in reply to autodeskguest

    On 28/01/2017 5:48 a.m., Neon John wrote:

    On Wed, 25 Jan 2017 16:46:53 GMT, Alberto Vignati

    <noreply-491088@element14.com> wrote:

     

    Hi Rachael,

     

    *It's this last part that the current Autodesk model doesn't cover which is causing most issues for professional users. i.e. what do

    we do in 10-15 years time when we need to access an old design*?+"

     

    Bingo!

     

    As coincidence would have it, I had a customer call me at 8AM this

    morning (Saturday) to tell me that his induction heater, S/N 02 from

    2009 had quit working.

     

    Fortunately I'd left all versions of Eagle I've ever owned installed

    on my computer so I could go into SVN, call up the old schematic and

    tell him what parts to change based on the diagnostic codes.

     

    I will NEVER EVER use software where I can't do that!

     

    John

    John DeArmond

    http://www.neon-john.com

    http://www.tnduction.com

    Tellico Plains, Occupied TN

    See website for email address

     

     

     

    Hi all

    In  the interest of accuracy. You will always be able to perform John's

    example of opening a schematic for review. No matter what calamity

    befell the outside world, you will at least have the freeware abilities

    which can load large designs.

     

    Warren

     

    --

    ... use NNTP://news.cadsoft.de and a functional news reader like

    Thunderbird!

    ... or http://www.eaglecentral.ca browser access to CadSoft EAGLE

    support forums.

     

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  • Justynb
    Justynb over 8 years ago in reply to autodeskguest

    warrenbrayshaw wrote on Fri, 27 January 2017 12:59

    In  the interest of accuracy. You will always be able to perform John's

     

    example of opening a schematic for review. No matter what calamity

    befell the outside world, you will at least have the freeware abilities

     

    which can load large designs.

     

     

    I'm sorry but I don't agree. What if you have to reinstall Eagle for some

    reason, and the licensing server has changed or no longer exists.

     

    From what I understand (please correct me if I'm wrong) you cannot install

    even the freeware version without using the license server.

    --

    EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

     

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 8 years ago in reply to Justynb

    On 28/01/2017 7:05 a.m., Justyn wrote:

    warrenbrayshaw wrote on Fri, 27 January 2017 12:59

    In  the interest of accuracy. You will always be able to perform John's

     

    example of opening a schematic for review. No matter what calamity

    befell the outside world, you will at least have the freeware abilities

     

    which can load large designs.

     

    I'm sorry but I don't agree. What if you have to reinstall Eagle for some

    reason, and the licensing server has changed or no longer exists.

     

    From what I understand (please correct me if I'm wrong) you cannot install

    even the freeware version without using the license server.

     

    Hi

     

    That's a good point.

     

    I would keep v7.7. available. It will likely be good for viewing new

    designs done in Autodesk Eagle, for a while at least. One would need to

    verify that.

     

    We need to understand if the Autodesk freeware version (at least) stores

    a file that can be backed up and restored with a rebuild, that does not

    require going online.

     

    Warren

     

     

     

    --

    ... use NNTP://news.cadsoft.de and a functional news reader like

    Thunderbird!

    ... or http://www.eaglecentral.ca browser access to CadSoft EAGLE

    support forums.

     

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