"Flip View" button

On 2/26/2011 10:41 AM, Jeff Gough wrote:

When routing the back of a board, it would be really nice to be able to

flip the view to see the back of the board as it really is.

 

It would be extremely useful when debugging a board, as it's really painful

to find a signal in eagle, then mentally flip it to find it on the physical

board.

 

It would also be useful for checking text layout on the back of the board.

Mentally flipping text is a bit of a pain, and almost impossible when

you're trying to evaluate its aesthetic appeal. Yes, I do consider

aesthetics important in PCB design!

 

I know I can print out the board mirrored, or group-then-mirror, and

various other hacks, but if this button existed, I'd click it every minute

or so when routing a complex design.

 

In fact, I'd prefer the board view to immediately mirror when I changed

routing layer to add a via! Other people probably wouldn't, so this would

have to be an option that defaulted to "off".

 

I've been using eagle for ten years, always wanting this feature, but only

just realised there was a suggestions forum!

 

gEDA, Orcad, Altium Designer, and probably others support this so I can't

be alone in desiring this feature! (see

http://wiki.altium.com/display/ADOH/AltiumDesignerViewer-ViewingPCBDocuments#AltiumDesignerViewer-ViewingPCBDocuments-FlippingtheBoard

for example)

the only thing I would add is that it should be very clear that you are

in flipped view, not requiring checking coordinates direction, pushing

buttons, issuing commands. this should go without saying, but just to be

sure, I'm saying it!

I have just finished a board that is circle shape and almost symmetrical

layout, what a nightmare if I don't know which side I'm looking at, it's

hard to keep it straight even without flipping.

On 02/28/11 22:29, Gary Gofstein wrote:

...

the only thing I would add is that it should be very clear that you are

in flipped view, not requiring checking coordinates direction, pushing

buttons, issuing commands. this should go without saying, but just to be

sure, I'm saying it!

Do you have any particular idea on how this could be made "very clear"?

I guess any small icon indicating this will be overlooked, and a thick

"yellow/black" border around the draw window indicating "Caution - you're

in flip mode!" will be overkill...

Klaus Schmidinger

--

_______________________________________________________________

Klaus Schmidinger                       Phone: +49-8635-6989-10

CadSoft Computer GmbH                   Fax:   +49-8635-6989-40

Pleidolfweg 15                          Email:   kls@cadsoft.de

D-84568 Pleiskirchen, Germany           URL:     www.cadsoft.de

_______________________________________________________________

Klaus Schmidinger wrote on Tue, 01 March 2011 03:20

Do you have any particular idea on how this could be made "very clear"?

I guess any small icon indicating this will be overlooked, and a thick

"yellow/black" border around the draw window indicating "Caution - you're

in flip mode!" will be overkill...

Yes, and annoying.

Whatever you do, make sure it can be easily disabled.  I don't want yet

another indicator cluttering up my screen or using up more precious

pixels.

While I think being able to flip the view (mirror left/right) would be

quite useful (I'm looking forward to making a hot key for that command), I

really don't see a problem with it causing confusion.  If there is any

text, it will be immediately obvious.  Even if not, when you're working on

a board you'll know it well enough to easily recognize whether you're

looking from the top or the bottom.  There is no problem to solve unless

you create one by adding nanny-ware.  Sometimes doing less is more.

--

Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

Silviu Epure wrote on Tue, 01 March 2011 04:28

What about if you colorize with yellow (for example) the background

EXCEPT the board?

Yucc.  Please, no!  That would be very annoying.

Boards have two sides, sometimes with components on each.  It isn't any

more right or wrong to view the board from the top than the bottom when

you're doing placement and routing.  That's just a convenience choice that

should be changeable easily without penalty.  I plan on setting up a hot

key for it.  It would really piss me off if each time I toggle to bottom

view I have to dismiss some warning or put up with a obnoxious background.

Cadsoft: This brings up one point though.  A natural way to use this new

command is to set up a hot key to toggle the top/bottom view state.  Every

time you hit the button it switches to the other orientation.  That means

it would be useful for the native command to toggle the state, not just

explicitly set it to top or bottom view mode.  Otherwise I'd have to write

a ULP that gets the current state, flips it, writes a script with the new

state, then runs the script.  That's doable, but I can't imagine it would

be much trouble to allow the command toggle the state natively if this is

considered from the start.

--

Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

Does it really matter if it's clear or not? People may want to draw the

 

board from bottom instead from top and should be allowed to.

Agreed! Let's just get it implemented as cleanly, minimally and, above all,

as quickly as possible!

When it's released and 90% of Eagle's user base is breathing a collective

sigh of relief, the other 10% can submit new suggestions of ways to

"improve" the appearance, behaviour and "user friendliness" of our simple,

humble Flip Board button.

--

Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

Olin wrote on Tue, 01 March 2011 14:23

Silviu Epure wrote on Tue, 01 March 2011 04:28

What about if you colorize with yellow (for example) the background

EXCEPT the board?

 

Yucc.  Please, no!  That would be very annoying.

Olin, I'm not sure this is such a bad idea.  Now maybe not yellow

background (maybe dark grey), but it would be good to have some sort of

visual clue as to what orientation you are currently looking at.  And I

rarely have text visible during intense routing sessions, so just looking

at text isn't enough for me.

I've used Altium which have this as a nice feature and it can be a bit

disorienting.  So having some way to give yourself a mental framework would

be helpful I think.

Quote:

Boards have two sides, sometimes with components on each.  It isn't any

more right or wrong to view the board from the top than the bottom when

you're doing placement and routing.  That's just a convenience choice

that should be changeable easily without penalty.  I plan on setting up a

hot key for it.  It would really piss me off if each time I toggle to

bottom view I have to dismiss some warning or put up with a obnoxious

background.

A normal background and flipped background colour would serve both of us.

I could set the flipped background to grey and you could set it to black.

Viola, we both get what we want

Quote:

Cadsoft: This brings up one point though.  A natural way to use this

new command is to set up a hot key to toggle the top/bottom view state.

Every time you hit the button it switches to the other orientation.  That

means it would be useful for the native command to toggle the state, not

just explicitly set it to top or bottom view mode.  Otherwise I'd have to

write a ULP that gets the current state, flips it, writes a script with

the new state, then runs the script.  That's doable, but I can't imagine

it would be much trouble to allow the command toggle the state natively

if this is considered from the start.

Good point Olin.  All commands should be like that, including turning

layers on and off.  I have ULP to do just that but the layer command should

toggle directly.

James.

--

James Morrison  ~~~  Stratford Digital

Specializing in CadSoft EAGLE

• Online Sales to North America

• Electronic Design Services

• EAGLE Enterprise Toolkit

--

Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

"James Morrison" <james@eaglecentral.ca> wrote in message

news:ikjj4p$llv$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

Olin, I'm not sure this is such a bad idea.  Now maybe not yellow

background (maybe dark grey), but it would be good to have some sort of

visual clue as to what orientation you are currently looking at.  And I

rarely have text visible during intense routing sessions, so just looking

at text isn't enough for me.

What's wrong with making your own indicator? Put the text "TOP" on your top

copper layer where you got some space free.

I agree with Olin that anything else than a normal view would be annoying.

Maybe a middle way using an alternative palette in rear view would work for

you?

On 3/1/11 3:20 AM, Klaus Schmidinger wrote:

Do you have any particular idea on how this could be made "very clear"?

I guess any small icon indicating this will be overlooked, and a thick

"yellow/black" border around the draw window indicating "Caution - you're

in flip mode!" will be overkill...

 

Klaus Schmidinger

Klaus,

First, please let me add my enthusiastic support for this idea.

Second, here is my suggestion for what to do when you display the mirror

image of the board:

Nothing.

I know my board designs. I know when I am looking at the front and when

I am looking the back. A good tool stays out of the designer's way.

Andrew Sterian

Senior Designer

Emsyde Design LLC

"Andreas Weidner" <andreas.weidner@aei.mpg.de> wrote in message

news:ikijgh$773$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

In a drill program of my own invention, I use the attached pictures

(plus others) to indicate the current view:

Andreas Weidner

Indeed, this is the widest used solution, and I tend to agree with the idea

of replacing the crosshair in the origin with something like in the attached

image. Mirroring the board will change the X arrow to the other direction.

--

Silviu Epure

"Dunarea de Jos" University of Galati, Romania

http://www.etc.ugal.ro/sepure

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end

Klaus Schmidinger wrote:

On 02/28/11 22:29, Gary Gofstein wrote:

>> ...

>> the only thing I would add is that it should be very clear that you

>> are in flipped view, not requiring checking coordinates direction,

>> pushing buttons, issuing commands. this should go without saying,

>> but just to be sure, I'm saying it!

 

Do you have any particular idea on how this could be made "very

clear"? I guess any small icon indicating this will be overlooked,

and a thick "yellow/black" border around the draw window indicating

"Caution - you're in flip mode!" will be overkill...

 

Klaus Schmidinger

--

Many replies so far but I feel many of the ideas do not address all use

scenarios

The TEXT on your design idea would not be workable. When you zoom, any

TOP/BOTTOM text on the board would likely be outside of the current view.

Changing the background color would definitely play havoc with  your color

perception and may introduce colour mixing problems.i.e. when a via color is

set to the background color

A technique used in may applications is to toggle the look of an icon. Care

is need here with placement and 'alerting' contrast if this is to work well.

That  icon can often be outside your peripheral vision when included on the

other toolbars. With a window reduced in size, the icon/button may be in the

drop down extensions of the toolbar and not be visable at all.

That said, the icon that toggles the view should toggle its face.

The XY icon

Added to the design area, be it solid or semi transparent, with a dense

design it is likely the icon would be lost in the view. Many would not like

this additional clutter in the design area.

The icon would need to be positioned  so it remains in position relative to

the window as you change zoom.

Alternatively it could be positionalble by the user (floating toolbar style

which permits it to be moved off the design area) and  transparency

adjustable. Even the design being user definable using a user specified

graphic.

It should only be visable for the alternate view thus improving its alerting

value.

Outlining the design area

You could add a boarder of 1 to 3 pixels to board design view. The colour

would have to be customisable to cater for the vaious chosen backgrounds.

This technique steals these few pixels from the design area.

I can see the alerting effect being diminished in some density/zoom/color

situations

My preference is to have the indication just outside of the design area.

Here are two ideas.

1) Change the colour of the scroll  bars and their background. Workable but

no way of quickly understanding why they changed colour

2) Change the background colour of the STATUS bar. The status bar is usually

alway visible and in the attension grabbing position below you sight line.

Words should alo be added to indicate that the BOTTOM view is actrive.  A

simple XY graphic could also be added. indicating X increases to the left.

The colour, words and icon should not be lost when  ULPs use the status

command.

I favour this last option.

Warren

"Warren Brayshaw" <warrenbrayshaw@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message

news:ikmc0n$332$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

2) Change the background colour of the STATUS bar. The status bar is

usually

alway visible and in the attension grabbing position below you sight line.

Words should alo be added to indicate that the BOTTOM view is actrive.  A

simple XY graphic could also be added. indicating X increases to the left.

The colour, words and icon should not be lost when  ULPs use the status

command.

I favour this last option.

What about an XY picture linked to the lower-left corner of the drawing

area? (lower-right in the "view from bottom" situation)?

It is highly visible, it is always there, it doesn't stay over the board

unless high zoom is applied (and in this case zoom was activated to see

something in the middle of the screen, not on the corner )

--

Silviu Epure

"Dunarea de Jos" University of Galati, Romania

http://www.etc.ugal.ro/sepure

Warren Brayshaw schrieb:

My preference is to have the indication just outside of the design area.

...

2) Change the background colour of the STATUS bar. The status bar is usually

alway visible and in the attension grabbing position below you sight line.

Words should alo be added to indicate that the BOTTOM view is actrive.  A

simple XY graphic could also be added. indicating X increases to the left.

The colour, words and icon should not be lost when  ULPs use the status

command.

 

I favour this last option.

I second that.

Currently, the status bar is almost always completely empty, or used to

display only rather short information. It could be segmented (as known

from many other programs), with the rightmost part showing the current

view status - maybe bold and/or colored when not "normal".

While thinking about it, this (another segment in the status bar) would

also be a fine place for the annotation status: "Annotation active" in

regular font resp. "NO ANNOTATION" in red, bold letters...

Tilmann

Warren Brayshaw schrieb:

My preference is to have the indication just outside of the design area.

...

2) Change the background colour of the STATUS bar. The status bar is usually

alway visible and in the attension grabbing position below you sight line.

Words should alo be added to indicate that the BOTTOM view is actrive.  A

simple XY graphic could also be added. indicating X increases to the left.

The colour, words and icon should not be lost when  ULPs use the status

command.

 

I favour this last option.

I second that.

Currently, the status bar is almost always completely empty, or used to

display only rather short information. It could be segmented (as known

from many other programs), with the rightmost part showing the current

view status - maybe bold and/or colored when not "normal".

While thinking about it, this (another segment in the status bar) would

also be a fine place for the annotation status: "Annotation active" in

regular font resp. "NO ANNOTATION" in red, bold letters...

Tilmann

Tilmann Reh wrote:

Warren Brayshaw schrieb:

 

>> My preference is to have the indication just outside of the design

>> area. ...

>> 2) Change the background colour of the STATUS bar. The status bar is

>> usually always visible and in the attention grabbing position below

>> you sight line. Words should also be added to indicate that the

>> BOTTOM view is active.  A simple XY graphic could also be added.

>> indicating X increases to the left. The colour, words and icon

>> should not be lost when  ULPs use the status command.

>>

>> I favour this last option.

Tilmann Reh wrote:

I second that.

 

Currently, the status bar is almost always completely empty, or used

to display only rather short information. It could be segmented (as

known from many other programs), with the rightmost part showing the

current view status - maybe bold and/or colored when not "normal".

 

While thinking about it, this (another segment in the status bar)

would also be a fine place for the annotation status: "Annotation

active" in regular font resp. "NO ANNOTATION" in red, bold letters...

 

Tilmann

Attached is a mock up of this idea. It's very close to 'do nothing' and

satisfies those who would like something.

No discussion has been had on the direction of the flip.

It has been implied that the flip is horizontal, like MIRROR, but a vertical

flip is just as valid.

If I'm handling a PCB the flip I perform depends on the aspect ratio so the

option to flip vertically also may be desirable. - thoughts?

Warren

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end

warrenbrayshaw wrote on Thu, 03 March 2011 15:16

No discussion has been had on the direction of the flip.

It has been implied that the flip is horizontal, like MIRROR, but a

vertical flip is just as valid.  If I'm handling a PCB the flip I perform

depends on the aspect ratio so the option to flip vertically also may be

desirable. - thoughts?

I suppose the full featured case would be to either mirror or not and

rotate any 90 degree increments.

However, if all that fanciness holds things up and makes it more difficult

to use, I'd rather just get a simple toggle mirror view command.

--

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