View rotation and mirror

Reece R. Pollack schrieb:

There are times when it would be very handy to be able to rotate the

view of a PCB layout or schematic. I don't mean by changing the layout

or schematic itself, but rotate how the layout or schematic is VIEWED.

 

It'd also be handy to be able to flip a PCB over so you're viewing it

from the bottom, rather than the top.

 

This is nothing more than coordinate translation when drawing the screen

and interpreting click locations. It wouldn't change anything stored in

the schematic or board file, so the effects in the code should be

relatively localized.

Seemingly you don't know how often (and for how long) this has been

requested before - unfortunately without responses so far.

Tilmann

Seemingly you don't know how often (and for how long) this has been

requested before - unfortunately without responses so far.

 

Tilmann

 

So true. Still want it...

Markus

Op Mon, 27 Aug 2012 11:28:19 +0200 schreef Markus Rudolf 

<user@domain.invalid>:

>> Me too. Possibly easy to implement - wondering why it was ignored for so

>> long....

>>

>> Stefan

>>

Because the more people want it, the more it is ignored. That's at least 

my impression

 

Markus

Well, at least is it not on the "EAGLE Feature Survey" that Jorge Garcia 

posted on Google doc's. So it's probably not high on Cadsoft's "what to 

implement next" list.

BTW, what do others make of that survey? I'm glad that at least Eagle for 

smartphones is on the list! Doing serious layout work on my phone has been 

high on my personal wish list! duhh...

Richard

Hi Richard and others,

On 08/27/12 12:50, Richard Herman wrote:

Op Mon, 27 Aug 2012 11:28:19 +0200 schreef Markus Rudolf

<user@domain.invalid>:

 

>>> Me too. Possibly easy to implement - wondering why it was ignored for so

>>> long....

>>>

>>> Stefan

>>>

>> Because the more people want it, the more it is ignored. That's at

>> least my impression

>>

>> Markus

 

Well, at least is it not on the "EAGLE Feature Survey" that Jorge Garcia

posted on Google doc's. So it's probably not high on Cadsoft's "what to

implement next" list.

 

well, Jorge's survey is based on what people want.

To my knowledge there were many other things mentioned, but not view rotation or mirror.

A few points /questions:

- Just if you are not aware: There is the print preview,

   that allows to see the drawing rotated or mirrored. If you just want to see it without

   editing this should be quite helpful.

- What's the advantage of editing the drawing in mirrored or rotated state ?

   It may be good to get a realistic impresion of how the board looks from behind or side.

   On the other hand you'll have trouble reading the texts.

We have doubts if this makes so much sense. Pls. let us know in which cases it makes sense.

Walter Spermann

BTW, what do others make of that survey? I'm glad that at least Eagle

for smartphones is on the list! Doing serious layout work on my phone

has been high on my personal wish list! duhh...

 

Richard

--

-

Walter Spermann

Softwareentwicklung

CadSoft Computer GmbH

Pleidolfweg 15

84568 Pleiskirchen

Tel.: 08635/6989-10

www.cadsoft.de

-

Registergericht: Amtsgericht Traunstein HRB 5573

Geschäftsführer: Thomas Liratsch

-

On 8/27/12 8:30 AM, Walter Spermann wrote:

  - What's the advantage of editing the drawing in mirrored or rotated state ?

    It may be good to get a realistic impresion of how the board looks from behind or side.

    On the other hand you'll have trouble reading the texts.

We have doubts if this makes so much sense. Pls. let us know in which cases it makes sense.

Suppose you are debugging a real, physical board. You need to know where

to probe or make modifications, and you have to mentally mirror the

board in your mind between what you hold in your hand and what you see

on the screen. That's when errors happen.

Why not just print out the bottom layer reversed?

1) It wastes paper and ink, which cost real money, wastes time, and is

impossible to do if you are working somewhere other than where you have

a printer

2) It doesn't show inner layers easily (no alpha blending on paper!)

And as for "reading the texts", that's one of the reasons to mirror the

bottom layer! Right now all of the texts on the bottom layer are

mirrored, so if I'm looking for capacitor C99 I may well

see C66 (mirrored) and think I found it.

 

Walter Spermann

 

>> BTW, what do others make of that survey? I'm glad that at least Eagle

>> for smartphones is on the list! Doing serious layout work on my phone

>> has been high on my personal wish list! duhh...

Agreed...the questions on the survey were of concern. Support for

smartphones?! Really?! How about Twitter integration! Let the world know

that you just added a resistor.

The survey questions did not seem well-aligned with the long-standing

feature requests. Plus, it only let you select one out of all the features.

Andrew.

>>

>> Richard

>

"Richard Herman" <bebop@xs4all.remove.nl> wrote:

Op Mon, 27 Aug 2012 11:28:19 +0200 schreef Markus Rudolf  <user@domain.invalid>:

 

>>> Me too. Possibly easy to implement - wondering why it was ignored for so

>>> long....

>>>

>>> Stefan

>>>

>> Because the more people want it, the more it is ignored. That's at least

>>  > my impression

>>

>> Markus

 

Well, at least is it not on the "EAGLE Feature Survey" that Jorge Garcia

posted on Google doc's. So it's probably not high on Cadsoft's "what to

implement next" list.

 

BTW, what do others make of that survey? I'm glad that at least Eagle for

smartphones is on the list! Doing serious layout work on my phone has

been  high on my personal wish list! duhh...

 

Richard

I have a hard time imagining 3d view without rotation an mirror, so guess

what I picked..

Am 27.08.2012 14:30, schrieb Walter Spermann:

  - Just if you are not aware: There is the print preview,

    that allows to see the drawing rotated or mirrored. If you just want to see it without

    editing this should be quite helpful.

Is a pain. I just want a quick view from the bottom to see if the

(otherwise mirrored) silkscreen looks nicely and is aligned proper.

I tend to have silkscreen always on both sides and label every

conenctor's pad with the signal name and such for making debugging a

board easier.

First thing that always comes up in this discussions is "theres an ULP

for that" (like for any basic function a CAD system should have as a

builtin command caugh), but that modifies the board's objects /

datastructures and this cannot be meant like always undo/redo stuff.

Plus its slow and doesnt work proper with multilayer boards as i found out.

  - What's the advantage of editing the drawing in mirrored or rotated state ?

    It may be good to get a realistic impresion of how the board looks from behind or side.

    On the other hand you'll have trouble reading the texts.

We have doubts if this makes so much sense. Pls. let us know in which cases it makes sense.

As stated above, I use would use it for fine tuning silkscreen and such.

Right now I am really printing out mirrored 1:1 copies on our Laserjet

and do the manual iteration. That sucks and wastes resources and my time.

Plus I really don't see any difficulties implementing that in an

hopefully object-oriented programmed CAD Software on a low level for

drawing the primitives like lines and such. It's basically just a factor

of -1 on the proper positions in the code.

I would not even care if the mirrored view is just a view which I cannot

edit anything, but just with a hotkey flip the view back and forth and

Zoom and Pan.

Of course if this can be done without to much trouble, count me in....

Markus

Am 27.08.2012 12:50, schrieb Richard Herman:

Well, at least is it not on the "EAGLE Feature Survey" that Jorge Garcia

posted on Google doc's. So it's probably not high on Cadsoft's "what to

implement next" list.

Wasn't actually aware of such a survey, and I'm following the newsgroup

on a regular base. Anyone got a link? Then I will add the mirror feature

Markus

Op Mon, 27 Aug 2012 21:41:40 +0200 schreef Markus Rudolf 

<user@domain.invalid>:

Am 27.08.2012 12:50, schrieb Richard Herman:

 

>> Well, at least is it not on the "EAGLE Feature Survey" that Jorge Garcia

>> posted on Google doc's. So it's probably not high on Cadsoft's "what to

>> implement next" list.

 

Wasn't actually aware of such a survey, and I'm following the newsgroup 

on a regular base. Anyone got a link? Then I will add the mirror feature 

 

Markus

 

It was announced in (at least) the eagle.userchat.eng group a couple of 

days ago.

Here's the link:

http://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dEF4MWdPVXgxNjdHMk9aWE5wOTNyQmc6MQ

Although someone in that thread claimed the link didn't work for him, it 

works fine for me.

Richard

Hi,

On 08/27/12 21:37, Markus Rudolf wrote:

Am 27.08.2012 14:30, schrieb Walter Spermann:

 

>>   - Just if you are not aware: There is the print preview,

>>     that allows to see the drawing rotated or mirrored. If you just

>> want to see it without

>>     editing this should be quite helpful.

 

Is a pain. I just want a quick view from the bottom to see if the

(otherwise mirrored) silkscreen looks nicely and is aligned proper.

 

I tend to have silkscreen always on both sides and label every

conenctor's pad with the signal name and such for making debugging a

board easier.

 

First thing that always comes up in this discussions is "theres an ULP

for that" (like for any basic function a CAD system should have as a

builtin command caugh), but that modifies the board's objects /

datastructures and this cannot be meant like always undo/redo stuff.

 

Plus its slow and doesnt work proper with multilayer boards as i found out.

 

>>   - What's the advantage of editing the drawing in mirrored or rotated

>> state ?

>>     It may be good to get a realistic impresion of how the board looks

>> from behind or side.

>>     On the other hand you'll have trouble reading the texts.

>> We have doubts if this makes so much sense. Pls. let us know in which

>> cases it makes sense.

 

As stated above, I use would use it for fine tuning silkscreen and such.

Right now I am really printing out mirrored 1:1 copies on our Laserjet

and do the manual iteration. That sucks and wastes resources and my time.

 

OK, we put this on our todo list. I can't make commitments when it will be implemented.

There are many more wishes from customers (like import/export, many other GUI oriented and

informatioal features), and our development staff is very limited.

Plus I really don't see any difficulties implementing that in an

hopefully object-oriented programmed CAD Software on a low level for

drawing the primitives like lines and such. It's basically just a factor

of -1 on the proper positions in the code.

Well, it's not as simple as that. At least there is a GUI extension necessary for that,

the EAGLE command syntax needs to be extended and some other stuff.

 

I would not even care if the mirrored view is just a view which I cannot

edit anything, but just with a hotkey flip the view back and forth and

Zoom and Pan.

 

Of course if this can be done without to much trouble, count me in....

 

Markus

 

--

-

Walter Spermann

Softwareentwicklung

CadSoft Computer GmbH

Pleidolfweg 15

84568 Pleiskirchen

Tel.: 08635/6989-10

www.cadsoft.de

-

Registergericht: Amtsgericht Traunstein HRB 5573

Geschäftsführer: Thomas Liratsch

-

Hi,

On 08/27/12 23:41, Richard Herman wrote:

Op Mon, 27 Aug 2012 21:41:40 +0200 schreef Markus Rudolf

<user@domain.invalid>:

 

>> Am 27.08.2012 12:50, schrieb Richard Herman:

>>

>>> Well, at least is it not on the "EAGLE Feature Survey" that Jorge Garcia

>>> posted on Google doc's. So it's probably not high on Cadsoft's "what to

>>> implement next" list.

>>

>> Wasn't actually aware of such a survey, and I'm following the

>> newsgroup on a regular base. Anyone got a link? Then I will add the

>> mirror feature

>>

>> Markus

>>

 

It was announced in (at least) the eagle.userchat.eng group a couple of

days ago.

 

Here's the link:

 

http://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dEF4MWdPVXgxNjdHMk9aWE5wOTNyQmc6MQ

 

 

Although someone in that thread claimed the link didn't work for him, it

works fine for me.

 

 

Richard

just a remark:

Not all topics on this list have high priority or are already on our todo list.

You may also add new suggestions in the comment section of the survey.

Walter Spermann

--

-

Walter Spermann

Softwareentwicklung

CadSoft Computer GmbH

Pleidolfweg 15

84568 Pleiskirchen

Tel.: 08635/6989-10

www.cadsoft.de

-

Registergericht: Amtsgericht Traunstein HRB 5573

Geschäftsführer: Thomas Liratsch

-

Hi,

On 08/27/12 12:50, Richard Herman wrote:

Op Mon, 27 Aug 2012 11:28:19 +0200 schreef Markus Rudolf

<user@domain.invalid>:

 

>>> Me too. Possibly easy to implement - wondering why it was ignored for so

>>> long....

>>>

>>> Stefan

>>>

>> Because the more people want it, the more it is ignored. That's at

>> least my impression

>>

>> Markus

 

Well, at least is it not on the "EAGLE Feature Survey" that Jorge Garcia

posted on Google doc's. So it's probably not high on Cadsoft's "what to

implement next" list.

 

BTW, what do others make of that survey? I'm glad that at least Eagle

for smartphones is on the list! Doing serious layout work on my phone

has been high on my personal wish list! duhh...

 

Richard

the point is actually "EAGLE for Tablet or Smartphones" and we primariliy think of tablets.

Is smartphones really an option ? Can you imagine doing PCB-design on such a small display,

only with touchscreen ?

Walter Spermann

--

-

Walter Spermann

Softwareentwicklung

CadSoft Computer GmbH

Pleidolfweg 15

84568 Pleiskirchen

Tel.: 08635/6989-10

www.cadsoft.de

-

Registergericht: Amtsgericht Traunstein HRB 5573

Geschäftsführer: Thomas Liratsch

-

Hi,

On 08/27/12 12:50, Richard Herman wrote:

Op Mon, 27 Aug 2012 11:28:19 +0200 schreef Markus Rudolf

<user@domain.invalid>:

 

>>> Me too. Possibly easy to implement - wondering why it was ignored for so

>>> long....

>>>

>>> Stefan

>>>

>> Because the more people want it, the more it is ignored. That's at

>> least my impression

>>

>> Markus

 

Well, at least is it not on the "EAGLE Feature Survey" that Jorge Garcia

posted on Google doc's. So it's probably not high on Cadsoft's "what to

implement next" list.

 

BTW, what do others make of that survey? I'm glad that at least Eagle

for smartphones is on the list! Doing serious layout work on my phone

has been high on my personal wish list! duhh...

 

Richard

the point is actually "EAGLE for Tablet or Smartphones" and we primariliy think of tablets.

Is smartphones really an option ? Can you imagine doing PCB-design on such a small display,

only with touchscreen ?

Walter Spermann

--

-

Walter Spermann

Softwareentwicklung

CadSoft Computer GmbH

Pleidolfweg 15

84568 Pleiskirchen

Tel.: 08635/6989-10

www.cadsoft.de

-

Registergericht: Amtsgericht Traunstein HRB 5573

Geschäftsführer: Thomas Liratsch

-

Am 28.08.2012 11:41, schrieb Walter Spermann:

the point is actually "EAGLE for Tablet or Smartphones" and we primariliy think of tablets.

Is smartphones really an option ? Can you imagine doing PCB-design on such a small display,

only with touchscreen ?

I'm 100% sure that NOBODY wants to use EAGLE on a system without mouse

or other PRECISE pointing device. Perhaps for LOOKING at files, but

quite definitely NOT for DOING things.

Andreas Weidner

Andreas Weidner schrieb:

Am 28.08.2012 11:41, schrieb Walter Spermann:

>> the point is actually "EAGLE for Tablet or Smartphones" and we primariliy think of tablets.

>> Is smartphones really an option ? Can you imagine doing PCB-design on such a small display,

>> only with touchscreen ?

 

I'm 100% sure that NOBODY wants to use EAGLE on a system without mouse

or other PRECISE pointing device. Perhaps for LOOKING at files, but

quite definitely NOT for DOING things.

First I thought you're absolutely right - but then, looking at people

who extensively waste time in web based forums or social networks,

access their mail by web mailer, etc. pp., and looking at some of the

questions coming up here lately (particularly from the e14 forums), I

must confess that I'm not really 100% sure about this any more... :-\

Tilmann

Op Tue, 28 Aug 2012 16:54:59 +0200 schreef Andreas Weidner 

<andreas.weidner@aei.mpg.de>:

Am 28.08.2012 11:41, schrieb Walter Spermann:

>> the point is actually "EAGLE for Tablet or Smartphones" and we 

>> primariliy think of tablets.

>> Is smartphones really an option ? Can you imagine doing PCB-design on 

>> such a small display,

>> only with touchscreen ?

 

I'm 100% sure that NOBODY wants to use EAGLE on a system without mouse 

or other PRECISE pointing device. Perhaps for LOOKING at files, but 

quite definitely NOT for DOING things.

 

Andreas Weidner

 

Exactly, even looking at files on a standard 10" tablet screen, doesn't 

really appeal to me.

I would move this to the bottom of the "to-do" list. But to each his own.

Richard

On 8/28/2012 5:41 AM, Walter Spermann wrote:

Hi,

On 08/27/12 12:50, Richard Herman wrote:

>> Op Mon, 27 Aug 2012 11:28:19 +0200 schreef Markus Rudolf

>> Richard

the point is actually "EAGLE for Tablet or Smartphones" and we primariliy think of tablets.

Is smartphones really an option ? Can you imagine doing PCB-design on such a small display,

only with touchscreen ?

 

Walter Spermann

 

Hi Guys,

As the maker of the survey, I think I should chime in on this. The first

survey I did received too many other(they didn't select one of the

provided responses) responses so I tried to cover more features. The

EAGLE for smartphones and tablets is there because believe it or not I

do get support calls with people asking when EAGLE will be available for

Android.

It doesn't make any sense to me, but I put it on there. If it's truly as

useless as we all think it is then that will reflect in a low number of

votes for that feature.

On the flip side(pun intended)I can't hope to cover every possible

feature request from thousands of users and that's why the comment

section is there. I go through all of the comments so anything I left

out of the main selection that is important will pop up there.

hth,

Jorge Garcia

On 8/28/12 6:23 PM, Jorge Garcia wrote:

As the maker of the survey, I think I should chime in on this. The first

survey I did received too many other(they didn't select one of the

provided responses) responses so I tried to cover more features. The

EAGLE for smartphones and tablets is there because believe it or not I

do get support calls with people asking when EAGLE will be available for

Android.

Jorge,

The survey is a good start. But finding the right answers and the right

questions is hard. The right answer to support calls that ask when EAGLE

will be available for Android is "When Android runs on computers with

enough control and display capability to make it possible to operate a

complicated CAD program, and also has enough market share of deployed

operating systems to make it worth the development".

So...not yet.

In other words, the customer is not always right, and the smart

companies know when to say no to them.

It doesn't make any sense to me, but I put it on there. If it's truly as

useless as we all think it is then that will reflect in a low number of

votes for that feature.

The people that make support calls and ask for Android support aren't

your customers. The people on this newsgroup are. Create a survey based

upon what we've been asking for!

On the flip side(pun intended)I can't hope to cover every possible

feature request from thousands of users and that's why the comment

section is there. I go through all of the comments so anything I left

out of the main selection that is important will pop up there.

A worthy effort, but market research is hard. But we're patient

 

hth,

Jorge Garcia

On 8/28/2012 8:31 PM, Andrew Sterian wrote:

 

Jorge,

 

The survey is a good start. But finding the right answers and the right

questions is hard. The right answer to support calls that ask when EAGLE

will be available for Android is "When Android runs on computers with

enough control and display capability to make it possible to operate a

complicated CAD program, and also has enough market share of deployed

operating systems to make it worth the development".

 

So...not yet.

 

In other words, the customer is not always right, and the smart

companies know when to say no to them.

Very clever response I don't think I could get away with it, but it

may serve me some day. We're not saying yes to anything yet, that's not

my responsibility, I'm just trying to gather feedback.

>> It doesn't make any sense to me, but I put it on there. If it's truly as

>> useless as we all think it is then that will reflect in a low number of

>> votes for that feature.

 

The people that make support calls and ask for Android support aren't

your customers. The people on this newsgroup are. Create a survey based

upon what we've been asking for!

 

>> On the flip side(pun intended)I can't hope to cover every possible

>> feature request from thousands of users and that's why the comment

>> section is there. I go through all of the comments so anything I left

>> out of the main selection that is important will pop up there.

 

A worthy effort, but market research is hard. But we're patient

Market research is not fun, as an engineer I'm not really into the whole

sales and marketing world, however I have a deep respect for those who

do it and do it well. Hopefully I'll get better, I'm much happier with

the response this time around, sifting through all of the comments will

probably be tedious but I think that's were I'll find the fodder for a

future survey.

Thanks for the input Andrew.

Best Regards,

Jorge Garcia