Formatting Xref net labels

Hi,

On 11/19/12 22:49, Vidar (Z) wrote:

Hi

 

Normally I have used only the text-based net labels on line that goes

from one sheet to another. My wish is to use the XREF option but I am

not comfortable with the format options.

 

My "big" problem is that the signal name for a given net label comes

inside the flag. I would prefer all symbols to be of equal size and to

have the text align on beside of the net flag instead.

 

not like this            but like this

  ______________________          _____

/NETLABEL_SIGNAL_NAME |       /     | NETLABEL_SIGNAL_NAME

\______________________|        \_____|

 

If not existing as an option already I would recommend to make the order

of the label xref formatting tags relevant (as set in misc menu) to the

result. Se my examples below:

 

                 ________________

%F%N (%S)      / NETLABEL (1)  |

                \________________|

 

                 _____

%N %F(%S)      / (1) | NETLABEL

                \_____|

                 _____

%N (%S)%F      /     | NETLABEL (1)

                \_____|

 

Here everything coming in front of the %F tag ends up outside the flag

and everything after %F ends up inside. The flag symbol would thus have

a minimum size like say 3 letters.

 

Second. Is it possible to have flags indicating direction of a net? I.e.

if signal is in, out or bidirectional. This should be possible to change

with a change command like for example CHANGE DIRECTION or CHANGE FLAG

if not existing as an option already somewhere.

 

input             bi              output

  _______          ______         ______

_/       |       /      \       |      \

\_______|        \______/       |______/

 

Thanks, but some questions on this:

- What flags would you set if the net has many (>2) pin connections ?

- How should it behave is a user has a net with unlogical connections, say input - input ?

This can cause confusion.

Regards,

Walter Spermann

 

NOTE: I asked this as an question in the support forum, but as mentioned

there I would put it here as a suggestion if it was not possible in some

other way already. As far as I can see, it is not, though I am using

glasses....!*

 

Breg

Vidar (Z)

--

-

Walter Spermann

Softwareentwicklung

CadSoft Computer GmbH

Pleidolfweg 15

84568 Pleiskirchen

Tel.: 08635/6989-10

www.cadsoft.de

-

Registergericht: Amtsgericht Traunstein HRB 5573

Geschäftsführer: Thomas Liratsch

-

I do not care about text OUTSIDE the label frame (it will always stay

INSIDE for me), but I also would very much like to see in/out/bi labels

as outlined.

Am 20.11.2012 18:22, schrieb Walter Spermann:

>> input             bi              output

>>    _______          ______         ______

>> _/       |       /      \       |      \

>>   \_______|        \______/       |______/

>>

Thanks, but some questions on this:

  - What flags would you set if the net has many (>2) pin connections ?

The form of the label MUST NOT be set automatically! Please leave it in

the responsibility of the user to select the appropriate form and make

the following choices available: INPUT and OUTPUT and BIDIRECTIONAL as

shown above, and perhaps even RECTANGLE, which is a simple surrounding

rectangle with no directional information.

  - How should it behave is a user has a net with unlogical connections, say input - input ?

As stated above, the label form is NOT changed automatically, and

therefore, no 'behaviour' is necessary at all. Also, please no ERC

checks or anything else. Just graphics. Easy to program, no hassles, no

automatisms.

This can cause confusion.

Without automatisms, confusion won't be possible (other than the user

labelling nets with the WRONG graphics, but that's the user's fault,

then, and not CadSoft's).

Andreas Weidner

I do not care about text OUTSIDE the label frame (it will always stay

INSIDE for me), but I also would very much like to see in/out/bi labels

as outlined.

Am 20.11.2012 18:22, schrieb Walter Spermann:

>> input             bi              output

>>    _______          ______         ______

>> _/       |       /      \       |      \

>>   \_______|        \______/       |______/

>>

Thanks, but some questions on this:

  - What flags would you set if the net has many (>2) pin connections ?

The form of the label MUST NOT be set automatically! Please leave it in

the responsibility of the user to select the appropriate form and make

the following choices available: INPUT and OUTPUT and BIDIRECTIONAL as

shown above, and perhaps even RECTANGLE, which is a simple surrounding

rectangle with no directional information.

  - How should it behave is a user has a net with unlogical connections, say input - input ?

As stated above, the label form is NOT changed automatically, and

therefore, no 'behaviour' is necessary at all. Also, please no ERC

checks or anything else. Just graphics. Easy to program, no hassles, no

automatisms.

This can cause confusion.

Without automatisms, confusion won't be possible (other than the user

labelling nets with the WRONG graphics, but that's the user's fault,

then, and not CadSoft's).

Andreas Weidner

On 11/21/2012 10:25 AM, Andreas Weidner wrote:

I do not care about text OUTSIDE the label frame (it will always stay

INSIDE for me), but I also would very much like to see in/out/bi labels

as outlined.

By implementing the proposed 'position dependent xref tag setup' Eagle

will become flexible enough to meet most peoples wishes in a simple

manner. A program that puts the user in the front seat is a good

program. (well almost always). Eagle should default to already existing

xref formatting of-course and leaving it up to the user to change it to

whatever they need.

 

As stated above, the label form is NOT changed automatically, and

therefore, no 'behaviour' is necessary at all. Also, please no ERC

checks or anything else. Just graphics. Easy to program, no hassles, no

automatisms.

This can be made as an option to choose automated direction setting

based on the nearest pin, or if it must be set manually. I guess

defaulting to 'input' is the most logical choice when set to manual

since the existing flag label has the form of an input flag.

But, I my self agree that only manual setting of the direction is

necessary as it also force the user to think throughly through the

design. That has never hurt anyone and as also stated, the flag is only

a way of visualizing the actual signal flow and making a schematic more

readable

ERC should off course not reflect if the chosen label flag direction

shows the direction of the pin connected to or not. A flag showing a

direction is, once again, only a visualization of the signal flow as

seen from the user perspective view, and it must be possible to set to

whatever direction one wants regardless of the direction of the pin one

connects to.

This is called KIS design (Keep It Simple)

>> This can cause confusion.

 

Without automatisms, confusion won't be possible (other than the user

labelling nets with the WRONG graphics, but that's the user's fault,

then, and not CadSoft's).

 

In the end, what brings confusion is highly individual. So in stead of

arguing for or against I repeat the humble words of Aristotle:

"To say of what is that it is not, or of what is not that it is, is

false, while to say of what is that it is, and of what is not that it is

not, is true."

Breg

Vidar (Z)

Hi,

On 11/21/2012 10:25 AM, Andreas Weidner wrote:

I do not care about text OUTSIDE the label frame (it will always stay INSIDE for me), but I also would very much like to

see in/out/bi labels as outlined.

 

Am 20.11.2012 18:22, schrieb Walter Spermann:

>>> input bi output

>>> _______ ______ ______

>>> _/ | / \ | \

>>> \_______| \______/ |______/

>>>

>> Thanks, but some questions on this:

>> - What flags would you set if the net has many (>2) pin connections ?

 

The form of the label MUST NOT be set automatically! Please leave it in the responsibility of the user to select the

appropriate form and make the following choices available: INPUT and OUTPUT and BIDIRECTIONAL as shown above, and

perhaps even RECTANGLE, which is a simple surrounding rectangle with no directional information.

 

>> - How should it behave is a user has a net with unlogical connections, say input - input ?

 

As stated above, the label form is NOT changed automatically, and therefore, no 'behaviour' is necessary at all. Also,

please no ERC checks or anything else. Just graphics. Easy to program, no hassles, no automatisms.

I forgot to mention change package, replace and library update: If the adjacent pins change, the labels

would have to be adapted. I think choosing a simple solution as you suggest is better here. Thanks.

Walter Spermann

>> This can cause confusion.

 

Without automatisms, confusion won't be possible (other than the user labelling nets with the WRONG graphics, but that's

the user's fault, then, and not CadSoft's).

 

Andreas Weidner

--

-

Walter Spermann

Softwareentwicklung

CadSoft Computer GmbH

Pleidolfweg 15

84568 Pleiskirchen

Tel.: 08635/6989-10

www.cadsoft.de

-

Registergericht: Amtsgericht Traunstein HRB 5573

Geschäftsführer: Thomas Liratsch

-

Am 21.11.2012 23:32, schrieb Walter.Spermann@cadsoft.de:

Hi,

 

On 11/21/2012 10:25 AM, Andreas Weidner wrote:

>> I do not care about text OUTSIDE the label frame (it will always stay

>> INSIDE for me), but I also would very much like to

>> see in/out/bi labels as outlined.

>>

>> Am 20.11.2012 18:22, schrieb Walter Spermann:

>>>> input bi output

>>>> _______ ______ ______

>>>> _/ | / \ | \

>>>> \_______| \______/ |______/

>>>>

>>> Thanks, but some questions on this:

>>> - What flags would you set if the net has many (>2) pin connections ?

>>

>> The form of the label MUST NOT be set automatically! Please leave it

>> in the responsibility of the user to select the

>> appropriate form and make the following choices available: INPUT and

>> OUTPUT and BIDIRECTIONAL as shown above, and

>> perhaps even RECTANGLE, which is a simple surrounding rectangle with

>> no directional information.

>>

>>> - How should it behave is a user has a net with unlogical

>>> connections, say input - input ?

>>

>> As stated above, the label form is NOT changed automatically, and

>> therefore, no 'behaviour' is necessary at all. Also,

>> please no ERC checks or anything else. Just graphics. Easy to program,

>> no hassles, no automatisms.

I forgot to mention change package, replace and library update: If the

adjacent pins change, the labels

would have to be adapted. I think choosing a simple solution as you

suggest is better here. Thanks.

 

Walter Spermann

 

>>

>>> This can cause confusion.

>>

>> Without automatisms, confusion won't be possible (other than the user

>> labelling nets with the WRONG graphics, but that's

>> the user's fault, then, and not CadSoft's).

>>

>> Andreas Weidner

In nowadays circuits with microcontrollers etc. most of the pins can be

of plural directions,  just depending on programming.

In plenty of revisions I made those directions pointers were mostly

confusing since they did not reflect the truth.

So imho showing a direction of labels is for the birds.

If  such a direction is "a must" for some people then it should be

realized just  as "show business" like A. Weidner pointed out.

Just keep it simple.

The Text of a connector should be inside the frame which is

a:Standard in electrical drawings and otherwise

b: might be confused with normal text nearby.

By for more important I consider a separate size of labels, independent

of the text size.

It is a horror if placing text and labels of different sizes and to

adjust the sizes each time.

--

Mit freundlichen Grüßen / With best regards

Joern Paschedag

> On 11/22/2012 09:11 AM, Joern Paschedag wrote:

>

>

> In nowadays circuits with microcontrollers etc. most of the pins can be

> of plural directions,  just depending on programming.

> In plenty of revisions I made those directions pointers were mostly

> confusing since they did not reflect the truth.

> So imho showing a direction of labels is for the birds.

I do not agree with you. A schematic that does not reflect reality is a

poorly designed schematic. The schematic is an important documentation

for the product and if it is not put up to date after a software change

its value is at best reduced.

Birds are free, by the way, and I prefer that...

>

> If  such a direction is "a must" for some people then it should be

> realized just  as "show business" like A. Weidner pointed out.

> Just keep it simple.

>

> The Text of a connector should be inside the frame which is

> a:Standard in electrical drawings and otherwise

Not so standard as you might think it is. I have been working both with

Mentorgraphics and Orcad for different companies and they both have

direction labels with net names put outside the flag as suggested above.

I have also been working with many big international companies, NVIDIA

to mention only one, and the schematics I have seen from them (which

uses for me an unknown eCAD software) has their net names written

outside the flag.

I have also seen flags which has the shape as I outlined in my ASCII

drawings with the words IN, OUT and BI written inside the flag and the

net name written outside. Yet, I have seen specialized direction flags

for buses with the shape of a bi flag with double walls. Something like

this:

    _______

   /_______\

_//      

 
_______//

   \_______/

So the standard you referee to is not so standard after all.

> b: might be confused with normal text nearby.

>

Its the designer that has the power and responsible to avoid putting

text so close together that the viewer might get confused. If so has

been done then the design and documentation of the product is of poor

quality in my point of view.

Breg

Vidar (Z)

Hi,

I agree with Vidar. It's the designer that should choose the right

label. See attached... Some pins are only outputs, some are only

inputs and some are bidirectional. If I could choose the label shape

I could emphasize this and the design will be more readable. Label text

inside or outside? I think it would be more beautiful if the text were

outside and shapes had the same length...

Best thing would be if I could choose two more shapes to the only two

available today (arrow shape or nothing), and also if I could decide if

the text is inside or outside.

Best regards

Alberto Vignati

Joern Paschedag wrote on Thu, 22 November 2012 03:11

In nowadays circuits with microcontrollers etc. most of the pins can be

 

of plural directions,  just depending on programming.

Exactly.  The pin direction in Eagle is only a very rough clue about

whether information actually flows in, out, or both ways of a pin.  We

already have enough problems from Eagle trying to infer too much from such

things. For example, you end up with nuisance ERC errors when a supply pin

named VDD is connected to +3.3V, or far worse, the supply pin VDD is

automatically connected to the net VDD without any indication of this on

the schematic.

It is no big deal to add your own direction symbols.  I have done this

routinely for years.  The important point is that I can chose where I want

to show a direction and what that direction is.  I have little arrows for

this purpose in my symbols library.  Here is a snippet of a schematic

showing their use:

If a pin direction was fixed and you knew you wanted to show it in the

schematic every time, you could even add this to the symbol in the library.

There are already plenty of easy ways to solve this problem.  Let's not

invent yet another automatic thing for Each to get right 90% of the time,

and more pointless busywork for the CadSoft developers.  There are plenty

of important features to implement, like hierarchical schematic blocks for

example.

--

Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

On 11/22/2012 03:43 PM, Olin Lathrop wrote:

Joern Paschedag wrote on Thu, 22 November 2012 03:11

>> In nowadays circuits with microcontrollers etc. most of the pins can be

>>

>> of plural directions,  just depending on programming.

 

Exactly.  The pin direction in Eagle is only a very rough clue about

whether information actually flows in, out, or both ways of a pin.  We

already have enough problems from Eagle trying to infer too much from such

things. For example, you end up with nuisance ERC errors when a supply pin

named VDD is connected to +3.3V, or far worse, the supply pin VDD is

automatically connected to the net VDD without any indication of this on

the schematic.

 

It is no big deal to add your own direction symbols.  I have done this

routinely for years.  The important point is that I can chose where I want

to show a direction and what that direction is.  I have little arrows for

this purpose in my symbols library.  Here is a snippet of a schematic

showing their use:

 

If a pin direction was fixed and you knew you wanted to show it in the

schematic every time, you could even add this to the symbol in the library.

You do not know what the direction of a MCU port pin will be, as already

stated by your self, so thus adding directions symbols in the library is

in my opinion lack of consistency when it comes to drawing symbols.

  There are already plenty of easy ways to solve this problem.  Let's not

invent yet another automatic thing for Each to get right 90% of the time,

and more pointless busywork for the CadSoft developers.  There are plenty

of important features to implement, like hierarchical schematic blocks for

example.

 

>

But..!  the suggestion is not a suggestion to have directional flags

that changes their sign by their own will. Nor was the original

suggestion to have the direction flag to inherit the value by the pin it

is connected to. The only wish I had was to be able to change the

direction of the already existing flag by a change command. Its

already half way implemented in the form of a flag that has the ability

to show only one direction. Adding the option to change direction will

in my opinion complete an existing feature

The "inherit direction from nearest pin" option was only rised during

the discussion that came after Walter at Cadsoft had some questions. but

it is not a part of my original request and never was the intention.

Finally, The correct rating of what is an "important feature" to be

implemented is highly individual, and there are many peoples that finds

this suggestion to be important as-well.

To clear things up, These are my suggestion...:

1) To have the option to change the flag direction by a change command

(but the flag shall not sniff on the pins on the net, I at-least have no

needs for that)

2) To be able to choose which data to be inside and which to be outside

the flag by using the formatting options position relative to %F ..

I am sorry if I was unclear in the beginning

Breg

Vidar

Vidar (Z) wrote on Fri, 23 November 2012 04:46

If a pin direction was fixed and you knew you wanted to show it in

the

schematic every time, you could even add this to the symbol in the

library.

 

You do not know what the direction of a MCU port pin will be, as

already

stated by your self, so thus adding directions symbols in the library

is

in my opinion lack of consistency when it comes to drawing symbols.

Right, that's why I said "if".  I have only added direction symbols a few

times in libraries.  Most of the confusion is around microcontroller pins

that can be used different ways.  For those I add the little arrows in the

schematic as I showed.  This is really easy.

/quote

and there are many peoples that finds this suggestion to be important

as-well.

I seriously doubt that.  You have latched onto this issue for some reason,

but it's really a minor nit in the overall scheme of things.  We don't want

CadSoft getting distracted by all the little minor nits to the point that

the truly useful major features get less attention.  The great thing about

Eagle is you can already do many things you wish it had on your own well

enough.  This particular feature is a great example of that.

--

Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

On 11/23/2012 02:36 PM, Olin Lathrop wrote:

Vidar (Z) wrote on Fri, 23 November 2012 04:46

>>> If a pin direction was fixed and you knew you wanted to show it in

>>> the

>>> schematic every time, you could even add this to the symbol in the

>>> library.

>>

>> You do not know what the direction of a MCU port pin will be, as

>> already

>> stated by your self, so thus adding directions symbols in the library

>> is

>> in my opinion lack of consistency when it comes to drawing symbols.

 

Right, that's why I said "if".  I have only added direction symbols a few

times in libraries.  Most of the confusion is around microcontroller pins

that can be used different ways.  For those I add the little arrows in the

schematic as I showed.  This is really easy.

 

Well, I did not comment on that before, but I did not like your

"solution" at all, but we live in a free world and you may do as you like.

However, a flag as outlined in my suggestion will be attached to the net

and by dragging the flag one will bring the net with you making it easy

to rearrange the schematic, if needed, without having to move around

self drawn arrows as-well.

And as mentioned. The flag option is partly implemented already and thus

part of eagle today, and one is free to use the feature, if implemented,

or to use whatever self-invented options one like.

/quote

and there are many peoples that finds this suggestion to be important

as-well.

I seriously doubt that.  You have latched onto this issue for some reason,

but it's really a minor nit in the overall scheme of things.  We don't want

CadSoft getting distracted by all the little minor nits to the point that

the truly useful major features get less attention.  The great thing about

Eagle is you can already do many things you wish it had on your own well

enough.  This particular feature is a great example of that.

 

I won't (almost) even comment that more than to saying there is

different opinions on this than yours and mine.

In fact, I also wish for hierarchical schematic blocks (HSB) to be

implemented, but they are longer down on my list than directional flags.

HSB is also useless, imho, if they do not show the signal directions.

Thus implementing directional flags is a step towards getting HSB and

should therefore be on the wish list for all of us.

Have a nice weekend

Breg

Vidar (Z)

In fact, I also wish for hierarchical schematic blocks (HSB) to be

implemented, but they are longer down on my list than directional flags.

HSB is also useless, imho, if they do not show the signal directions.

Thus implementing directional flags is a step towards getting HSB and

should therefore be on the wish list for all of us.

Hello,

I would like to re-animate the discussion on Xref net labels. Since the

Xref labels were introduced to Eagle I have been using them, and even

modifying some older schematic drawings to use them for better visual

appearance. BUT I have all the time been missing the directional option

on them, all my signals are not inputs as the Xref arrow direction would

imply. What I would like to achieve is something like the attached

drawing (taken from http://www.ti.com/lit/an/slva444/slva444.pdf)

I hope there would be some comment from Eagle developer side to state if

this opton is considered for future releases. I would suggest that 3+1

options is sufficient (iput/output/bidirectional) added with the 4th

Xref-Off. Don't care for the out-of-arrow label option, but someone

might need that. Also make the default text size to 0.05 on Xrefs to

make the arrows align on 0.1" grid. My vote for these features!!!

Kim

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