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Autodesk EAGLE
EAGLE User Support (English) Auto-place, or at least "semi-automatic"
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Related

Auto-place, or at least "semi-automatic"

autodeskguest
autodeskguest over 10 years ago

Hello,

 

In the spirit of the Thanksgiving holiday tomorrow first of all a major

thank-you to Cadsoft for introducing a hierarchical schematic sheet

structure. This will hopefully bring Eagle more into the mainstream and

it was "the" reason why I bought V7 (I was a V4 hold-out).

 

Since Eagle does not have an auto-place routine and Jorge Garcia said in

another forum that there aren't any really suitable algorithms for that

I have a suggestion for a simpler fix:

 

When switching to board view for the first time let Eagle scatter the

components the same way they are on the schematic, with multiple pages

in sub-groups. It's ok if that occupies a large area because people will

then be able to concentrate on one stage at a time, drag that over as a

group and arrange the parts as need. Then the next cluster. And so on.

 

Right now Eagle just plops the parts down in a willy-nilly fashion. It

looks like neat rows but the designators are all mixed up, the ratsnest

is a mess. This lengthens the placement job because one has to search

for many parts.

 

Also, I strongly suggest to let the "lesser versions" such as Eagle

Standard pre-group clusters outside the board area just to get a grasp

of what belongs together. Right now it refuses with an error message

"objects outside allowed board area". You cannot move one little thing

unless you move it into the board area. You can't even move it back out

if you grabbed the wrong part. Just let people arrange parts outside the

board area wherever they want but without routing permission. That will

uphold the license limitations because they can only route after the

affected parts have been moved inside the board area.

 

--

Regards, Joerg

 

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

 

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 10 years ago

    Joerg wrote on Wed, 26 November 2014 20:02

    When switching to board view for the first time let Eagle scatter the

    components the same way they are on the schematic, with multiple pages

    in sub-groups.

     

    I don't see any point to this.  The initial placement outside the board

    area is irrelevant, so  code to arrange it any particular way would be a

    waste of effort.

     

    Auto-placement algorithms don't really work with current technology.

    You're going to place every component manually anyway.  It doesn't matter

    where it comes from outside the board area when you bring it into the board

    area to place it.  You would typically be zoomed in to the area of the

    board you are working on, or at least zoomed to just the board if the board

    is small.  Parts you bring in to place will come from off screen someplace

    no matter how they are arranged out there.  It makes no difference where

    off screen that is.

     

    This is one of the few tasks where a paper printout is still useful.  After

    finishing the schematic, I print it out and put it on my desk.  As parts

    are placed, they are crossed off in the schematic.  When everything on a

    sheet is placed, the legend in the lower right corner is crossed off.  This

    process continues until everything is crossed off, meaning all parts have

    been placed.  Note that nowhere in this process does it matter at all where

    the unplaced parts are, as long as they aren't on the board.

    --

    Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

     

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 10 years ago in reply to autodeskguest

    Olin Lathrop wrote:

    Joerg wrote on Wed, 26 November 2014 20:02

    When switching to board view for the first time let Eagle scatter the

    components the same way they are on the schematic, with multiple pages

    in sub-groups.

     

    I don't see any point to this.  The initial placement outside the board

    area is irrelevant, so  code to arrange it any particular way would be a

    waste of effort.

     

     

    Not at all, it will make it much easier to find stuff.

     

     

    Auto-placement algorithms don't really work with current technology.

     

     

    So why do even lower cost CAD programs such as Diptrace have it and

    people use it?

     

     

    You're going to place every component manually anyway.  It doesn't matter

    where it comes from outside the board area when you bring it into the board

    area to place it.  You would typically be zoomed in to the area of the

    board you are working on, or at least zoomed to just the board if the board

    is small.

     

     

    And that's exactly the problem. You are constantly zooming in and out to

    locate parts, especially if you do not have super-duper monitor

    resolution combined with the eyes of an eagle (the real ones, soaring

    high in the sky and able to spot a mouse a quarter mile below them).

     

     

    ... Parts you bring in to place will come from off screen someplace

    no matter how they are arranged out there.  It makes no difference where

    off screen that is.

     

    This is one of the few tasks where a paper printout is still useful.  After

    finishing the schematic, I print it out and put it on my desk.  As parts

    are placed, they are crossed off in the schematic.  When everything on a

    sheet is placed, the legend in the lower right corner is crossed off.  This

    process continues until everything is crossed off, meaning all parts have

    been placed.  Note that nowhere in this process does it matter at all where

    the unplaced parts are, as long as they aren't on the board.

     

     

    That's how we did that at the beginning of my career, almost 30 years

    ago. I thought that in this day and age at least some auto-grouping

    can't be too much to ask.

     

    Imagine this process in a cramped coach class seat on a >10h

    international flight where your "work space" is the size of a letter A

    sheet and all you have is a netbook. I had four of those flights over

    the last couple of months.

     

    --

    Regards, Joerg

     

    http://www.analogconsultants.com/

     

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  • anweid
    anweid over 10 years ago in reply to autodeskguest

    Am 27.11.2014 19:39, schrieb Joerg:

    You're going to place every component manually anyway.  It doesn't matter

    where it comes from outside the board area when you bring it into the board

    area to place it.  You would typically be zoomed in to the area of the

    board you are working on, or at least zoomed to just the board if the board

    is small.

     

    Yes, this is EXACTLY how to create a nice layout.

     

    And that's exactly the problem. You are constantly zooming in and out to

    locate parts, especially if you do not have super-duper monitor

    resolution combined with the eyes of an eagle (the real ones, soaring

    high in the sky and able to spot a mouse a quarter mile below them).

     

    No, you do NOT need ANY zooming, and you don't need to have good eyes,

    either. But, to make that clearer: Olin is a professional long-term user

    who surely knows EAGLE by heart and, above all, USES THE COMMAND LINE.

    For placing components on board, the command line is absolutely

    gorgeous, and you use it as follows:

      1. Make a printout of your schematics. That's not STRICTLY necessary,

         but - believe it or not - the quality of your routing DEFINITELY

         improves if you have a printout available and do NOT have to

         constantly switch screens between schematics and board. If you use

         TWO monitors (one for the schematics, one for the board), a

         printout is NOT necessary.

      2. Zoom into a completely EMPTY space where you later want to place

         your components.

      3. Do NOT try to zoom back to where the components actually ARE

         placed right now - just completely ignore their current positions

         (you don't know these positions, anyway).

      4. Do NOT try to move components by trying to find them on screen

         and clicking on them - that's INCREDIBLY difficult and

         time-consuming.

      5. Instead, decide which component you WANT to move by consulting the

         schematics and then TYPE the corresponding command into the board's

         command line. E.g., if you want to move R1, type 'mov r1' (+ENTER),

         and immediately you have the desired component at your mouse tip,

         INDEPENDENT of where it was located previously! You do NOT need to

         search OR zoom OR pan, so you can find and move your components

         approximately twenty times faster than by just using the mouse.

      6. After placing the component where you want it, the MOVE command is

         STILL active, so you don't even need to type it in again, so you

         just type 'N3' and have N3 at your mouse tip for easy placing.

      7. Quite often, do a RATSNEST to improve airwire display.

      8. For even quicker access, create key combinations for the MOVE

         command (e.g. CTRL+M) and RATSNEST.

     

    This is one of the few tasks where a paper printout is still useful.  After

    finishing the schematic, I print it out and put it on my desk.

     

    Yes. As already mentioned, this creates the best routing results.

     

    Imagine this process in a cramped coach class seat on a >10h

    international flight where your "work space" is the size of a letter A

    sheet and all you have is a netbook. I had four of those flights over

    the last couple of months.

     

    With the above method, you can easily ignore ANY default positioning of

    components, because you ONLY work with the area where you desired that

    components SHOULD go. You don't have to search and find and click.

     

    In my opinion, EAGLE's command line is its best feature and certainly

    time-saver no. 1. One just has to overcome the sometimes available

    personal reluctance to use it ('typing? no - we did that with MS-DOS,

    now we want to use the mouse instead').

     

    Andreas Weidner

     

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 10 years ago in reply to autodeskguest

    Joerg wrote on Thu, 27 November 2014 13:39

    I don't see any point to this.  The initial placement outside the

    board

    area is irrelevant, so code to arrange it any particular way would

    be a

    waste of effort.

     

    Not at all, it will make it much easier to find stuff.

     

     

    But you never go "finding" components out in the Ort Cloud.  You bring them

    in as necessary to where you are currently working on placement.  When you

    reference a component, it attaches to the mouse cursor.  It doesn't matter

    at all where it was before that.  You don't need to know, in fact don't

    want to know, where it came from.

     

    For example, I have F12 in the board editor set up to do "ratsnest; move".

    I hit F12, then enter the component designator, like "R27", and poof, it's

    attached to the mouse cursor.  Where it was before this operation is

    completely irrelevant.  It was just "out there" somewhere.  There is never

    a need to look at the Ort Cloud during placement.  Sometimes when I think

    I'm close to done with placement I'll do a "window" to see if there are any

    stragglers I missed.

     

    You seem to be imagining picking thru the cloud of components looking for

    the right one visually.  That would be very tedious and is not how it's

    done.  Get some experience with Eagle and learn to use it well before

    asking for new features.

     

    Quote:

    Auto-placement algorithms don't really work with current

    technology.

     

    So why do even lower cost CAD programs such as Diptrace have it and

    people use it?

     

     

    Because the world has a large supply of marketing people and gullible

    users.

     

    Quote:

    And that's exactly the problem. You are constantly zooming in and out

    to locate parts, especially if you do not have super-duper monitor

    resolution combined with the eyes of an eagle (the real ones, soaring

    high in the sky and able to spot a mouse a quarter mile below them).

     

     

    Again, you need to first learn to use Eagle effectively.  You don't ever

    drag parts from the cloud to the board.  That would be very tedious,

    regardless of how organized the cloud of parts might be.  Using Eagle right

    is quicker, less tedious, and doesn't require and new organization of

    unplaced parts.

     

    Quote:

    Imagine this process in a cramped coach class seat on a >10h

    international flight where your "work space" is the size of a letter A

    sheet and all you have is a netbook. I had four of those flights over the

    last couple of months.

     

     

    Then you especially don't want to do it the way you describe.  A printout

    is still useful because it allows you to cross off parts as they are

    placed, making it easier not to miss any.  But either way, not dragging

    parts from off-board reduces the need for panning and zooming more than any

    organization of the unrouted parts would allow.

    --

    Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

     

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 10 years ago in reply to anweid

    Andreas Weidner wrote:

    Am 27.11.2014 19:39, schrieb Joerg:

    You're going to place every component manually anyway.  It doesn't

    matter

    where it comes from outside the board area when you bring it into the

    board

    area to place it.  You would typically be zoomed in to the area of the

    board you are working on, or at least zoomed to just the board if the

    board

    is small.

     

    Yes, this is EXACTLY how to create a nice layout.

     

     

    There is another method to create nice layouts and I've seen that many

    years ago on a large mainframe system (late 80s!). The layout software

    clustered the parts somewhat similar to the schematic. That is much more

    intuitive to many people including me and the layouters at that company

    preferred this method greatly over the command line.

     

     

    And that's exactly the problem. You are constantly zooming in and out to

    locate parts, especially if you do not have super-duper monitor

    resolution combined with the eyes of an eagle (the real ones, soaring

    high in the sky and able to spot a mouse a quarter mile below them).

     

    No, you do NOT need ANY zooming, and you don't need to have good eyes,

    either. But, to make that clearer: Olin is a professional long-term user

    who surely knows EAGLE by heart and, above all, USES THE COMMAND LINE.

    For placing components on board, the command line is absolutely

    gorgeous, and you use it as follows:

    1. Make a printout of your schematics. That's not STRICTLY necessary,

        but - believe it or not - the quality of your routing DEFINITELY

        improves if you have a printout available and do NOT have to

        constantly switch screens between schematics and board. If you use

        TWO monitors (one for the schematics, one for the board), a

        printout is NOT necessary.

     

     

    Funny that you mention it, this morning I ordered a new PC and also a

    second 27" monitor with exactly such purposes in mind.

     

     

    2. Zoom into a completely EMPTY space where you later want to place

        your components.

    3. Do NOT try to zoom back to where the components actually ARE

        placed right now - just completely ignore their current positions

        (you don't know these positions, anyway).

    4. Do NOT try to move components by trying to find them on screen

        and clicking on them - that's INCREDIBLY difficult and

        time-consuming.

    5. Instead, decide which component you WANT to move by consulting the

        schematics and then TYPE the corresponding command into the board's

        command line. E.g., if you want to move R1, type 'mov r1' (+ENTER),

        and immediately you have the desired component at your mouse tip,

        INDEPENDENT of where it was located previously! You do NOT need to

        search OR zoom OR pan, so you can find and move your components

        approximately twenty times faster than by just using the mouse.

    6. After placing the component where you want it, the MOVE command is

        STILL active, so you don't even need to type it in again, so you

        just type 'N3' and have N3 at your mouse tip for easy placing.

    7. Quite often, do a RATSNEST to improve airwire display.

    8. For even quicker access, create key combinations for the MOVE

        command (e.g. CTRL+M) and RATSNEST.

     

     

    Sure you can do that. You could even use the mouse for the move command

    like Olin said. I am used to the command line from the Orcad SDT days.

    Still, not all layouters work that way. Many do not even want the

    keyboard on the desk during placement and routing.

     

     

    This is one of the few tasks where a paper printout is still useful.

    After

    finishing the schematic, I print it out and put it on my desk.

     

    Yes. As already mentioned, this creates the best routing results.

     

    Imagine this process in a cramped coach class seat on a >10h

    international flight where your "work space" is the size of a letter A

    sheet and all you have is a netbook. I had four of those flights over

    the last couple of months.

     

    With the above method, you can easily ignore ANY default positioning of

    components, because you ONLY work with the area where you desired that

    components SHOULD go. You don't have to search and find and click.

     

    In my opinion, EAGLE's command line is its best feature and certainly

    time-saver no. 1. One just has to overcome the sometimes available

    personal reluctance to use it ('typing? no - we did that with MS-DOS,

    now we want to use the mouse instead').

     

     

    I grew up with DOS. Ok, now I've given my age away. Still, when it comes

    to layouts I prefer not to have to use the keyboard much. I don't do

    layouts much but I sometimes take over when very critical RF stuff must

    be placed and routed.

     

    --

    Regards, Joerg

     

    http://www.analogconsultants.com/

     

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 10 years ago in reply to autodeskguest

    Olin Lathrop wrote:

    Joerg wrote on Thu, 27 November 2014 13:39

    I don't see any point to this.  The initial placement outside the

    board

    area is irrelevant, so code to arrange it any particular way would

    be a

    waste of effort.

    Not at all, it will make it much easier to find stuff.

     

    But you never go "finding" components out in the Ort Cloud.  You bring them

    in as necessary to where you are currently working on placement.  When you

    reference a component, it attaches to the mouse cursor.  It doesn't matter

    at all where it was before that.  You don't need to know, in fact don't

    want to know, where it came from.

     

    For example, I have F12 in the board editor set up to do "ratsnest; move".

    I hit F12, then enter the component designator, like "R27", and poof, it's

    attached to the mouse cursor.  Where it was before this operation is

    completely irrelevant.  It was just "out there" somewhere.  There is never

    a need to look at the Ort Cloud during placement.  Sometimes when I think

    I'm close to done with placement I'll do a "window" to see if there are any

    stragglers I missed.

     

    You seem to be imagining picking thru the cloud of components looking for

    the right one visually.  That would be very tedious and is not how it's

    done. ...

     

     

    That's how I saw many layouters do it. It was very easy when the SW

    clustered the parts roughly right. Then you could drag a whole section

    over, move individual parts a bit, rotate here and there, and route. No

    need to type in R27, Q34, C159, C112, D38 and hundreds of others.

     

     

    Get some experience with Eagle and learn to use it well before

    asking for new features.

     

     

    I am using Eagle since about 10 years and CAD in general since about 30

    years. Back when layouts were usually done on mainframes.

     

    Generally I farm out layouts but often sit next to the layouter during

    critical placement and routing. Sometimes I take over for a while. In

    recent times we occasionally did that via online conferencing. You can

    hand off mouse control there.

     

     

    Quote:

    Auto-placement algorithms don't really work with current

    technology.

    So why do even lower cost CAD programs such as Diptrace have it and

    people use it?

     

    Because the world has a large supply of marketing people and gullible

    users.

     

     

    I am sure there are layouters who would disagree.

     

     

    Quote:

    And that's exactly the problem. You are constantly zooming in and out

    to locate parts, especially if you do not have super-duper monitor

    resolution combined with the eyes of an eagle (the real ones, soaring

    high in the sky and able to spot a mouse a quarter mile below them).

     

    Again, you need to first learn to use Eagle effectively.  You don't ever

    drag parts from the cloud to the board.  That would be very tedious,

    regardless of how organized the cloud of parts might be.  Using Eagle right

    is quicker, less tedious, and doesn't require and new organization of

    unplaced parts.

     

    Quote:

    Imagine this process in a cramped coach class seat on a >10h

    international flight where your "work space" is the size of a letter A

    sheet and all you have is a netbook. I had four of those flights over the

    last couple of months.

     

    Then you especially don't want to do it the way you describe.

     

     

    Nope, it's especially where you need it. Because you don't have enough

    screen space and also no other space to display a schematic. Unless you

    can convince your seat neighbor to not watch the movie and tape the

    schematic over his IFE screen. It's hard to do a layout without seeing

    the schematic all the time but I've done it. If you are the designer of

    the circuitry it isn't that tough as long as the parts are grouped

    somewhat together so you don't have to squint and follow air wires much.

     

     

                                                        ... A printout

    is still useful because it allows you to cross off parts as they are

    placed, making it easier not to miss any.  But either way, not dragging

    parts from off-board reduces the need for panning and zooming more than any

    organization of the unrouted parts would allow.

     

     

    Without a schematic visible all the time that only works if you have

    photographic memory image

     

    --

    Regards, Joerg

     

    http://www.analogconsultants.com/

     

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 10 years ago in reply to autodeskguest

    Olin Lathrop wrote:

    Joerg wrote on Thu, 27 November 2014 13:39

    I don't see any point to this.  The initial placement outside the

    board

    area is irrelevant, so code to arrange it any particular way would

    be a

    waste of effort.

    Not at all, it will make it much easier to find stuff.

     

    But you never go "finding" components out in the Ort Cloud.  You bring them

    in as necessary to where you are currently working on placement.  When you

    reference a component, it attaches to the mouse cursor.  It doesn't matter

    at all where it was before that.  You don't need to know, in fact don't

    want to know, where it came from.

     

    For example, I have F12 in the board editor set up to do "ratsnest; move".

    I hit F12, then enter the component designator, like "R27", and poof, it's

    attached to the mouse cursor.  Where it was before this operation is

    completely irrelevant.  It was just "out there" somewhere.  There is never

    a need to look at the Ort Cloud during placement.  Sometimes when I think

    I'm close to done with placement I'll do a "window" to see if there are any

    stragglers I missed.

     

    You seem to be imagining picking thru the cloud of components looking for

    the right one visually.  That would be very tedious and is not how it's

    done. ...

     

     

    That's how I saw many layouters do it. It was very easy when the SW

    clustered the parts roughly right. Then you could drag a whole section

    over, move individual parts a bit, rotate here and there, and route. No

    need to type in R27, Q34, C159, C112, D38 and hundreds of others.

     

     

    Get some experience with Eagle and learn to use it well before

    asking for new features.

     

     

    I am using Eagle since about 10 years and CAD in general since about 30

    years. Back when layouts were usually done on mainframes.

     

    Generally I farm out layouts but often sit next to the layouter during

    critical placement and routing. Sometimes I take over for a while. In

    recent times we occasionally did that via online conferencing. You can

    hand off mouse control there.

     

     

    Quote:

    Auto-placement algorithms don't really work with current

    technology.

    So why do even lower cost CAD programs such as Diptrace have it and

    people use it?

     

    Because the world has a large supply of marketing people and gullible

    users.

     

     

    I am sure there are layouters who would disagree.

     

     

    Quote:

    And that's exactly the problem. You are constantly zooming in and out

    to locate parts, especially if you do not have super-duper monitor

    resolution combined with the eyes of an eagle (the real ones, soaring

    high in the sky and able to spot a mouse a quarter mile below them).

     

    Again, you need to first learn to use Eagle effectively.  You don't ever

    drag parts from the cloud to the board.  That would be very tedious,

    regardless of how organized the cloud of parts might be.  Using Eagle right

    is quicker, less tedious, and doesn't require and new organization of

    unplaced parts.

     

    Quote:

    Imagine this process in a cramped coach class seat on a >10h

    international flight where your "work space" is the size of a letter A

    sheet and all you have is a netbook. I had four of those flights over the

    last couple of months.

     

    Then you especially don't want to do it the way you describe.

     

     

    Nope, it's especially where you need it. Because you don't have enough

    screen space and also no other space to display a schematic. Unless you

    can convince your seat neighbor to not watch the movie and tape the

    schematic over his IFE screen. It's hard to do a layout without seeing

    the schematic all the time but I've done it. If you are the designer of

    the circuitry it isn't that tough as long as the parts are grouped

    somewhat together so you don't have to squint and follow air wires much.

     

     

                                                        ... A printout

    is still useful because it allows you to cross off parts as they are

    placed, making it easier not to miss any.  But either way, not dragging

    parts from off-board reduces the need for panning and zooming more than any

    organization of the unrouted parts would allow.

     

     

    Without a schematic visible all the time that only works if you have

    photographic memory image

     

    --

    Regards, Joerg

     

    http://www.analogconsultants.com/

     

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