USB routing problems : D+/- length issues

Vincent Vittori schrieb:

I'm a user of Eagle for 2 years now, and i'm trying to make USB with

an Overo and a dsPIC. The thing is that I had read somewhere

(http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/hs_usb_pdg_r1_0.pdf) that the

signals D+ and D- must have the same length (they talk about non

parallelism page 10 figure 5)

 

But here is the point : how you do that on Eagle , to force 2 wire to

have the same length (or being parallel all the way), in autorouter

mode of course but even in manual mode.

First of all, I would never use the autorouter for this. (I don't use it

at all... but here it's essential.)

Then, simply (manually) route your tracks as parallel as possible. You

can check their length with an ULP and correct them if necessary.

In EAGLE, there is no way to /force/ an equally long differential pair

during routing, neither manually nor by autorouter. Maybe V6 will add

something new here, but I don't know.

Tilmann

On 09/23/11 08:08, Tilmann Reh wrote:

...

In EAGLE, there is no way to /force/ an equally long differential pair

during routing, neither manually nor by autorouter. Maybe V6 will add

something new here, but I don't know.

In V6 the (manual) ROUTE command will treat signals that have the

same net class and the same name (one ending with '+' and the other

with '-') as "differential pairs". When picking up one airwire of such

a pair, both signals will be routed in parallel, keeping the distance

as defined in the net class.

This can't guarantee the same length for both signals, so there

will also be a new command that generates "meanders" to compensate

for length differences, or to create a fixed total length of a

differential pair.

Klaus Schmidinger

--

_______________________________________________________________

Klaus Schmidinger                       Phone: +49-8635-6989-10

CadSoft Computer GmbH                   Fax:   +49-8635-6989-40

Pleidolfweg 15                          Email:   kls@cadsoft.de

D-84568 Pleiskirchen, Germany           URL:     www.cadsoft.de

_______________________________________________________________

"Klaus Schmidinger" <Klaus.Schmidinger@cadsoft.de> a écrit dans le message de news:

j5hdh5$va6$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

On 09/23/11 08:08, Tilmann Reh wrote:

>> ...

>> In EAGLE, there is no way to /force/ an equally long differential pair

>> during routing, neither manually nor by autorouter. Maybe V6 will add

>> something new here, but I don't know.

 

In V6 the (manual) ROUTE command will treat signals that have the

same net class and the same name (one ending with '+' and the other

with '-') as "differential pairs". When picking up one airwire of such

a pair, both signals will be routed in parallel, keeping the distance

as defined in the net class.

does that mean there will be more than 7 net classes?

On 09/23/11 12:12, Christian Bohrer wrote:

"Klaus Schmidinger"<Klaus.Schmidinger@cadsoft.de>  a écrit dans le message de news:

j5hdh5$va6$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

>> On 09/23/11 08:08, Tilmann Reh wrote:

>>> ...

>>> In EAGLE, there is no way to /force/ an equally long differential pair

>>> during routing, neither manually nor by autorouter. Maybe V6 will add

>>> something new here, but I don't know.

>>

>> In V6 the (manual) ROUTE command will treat signals that have the

>> same net class and the same name (one ending with '+' and the other

>> with '-') as "differential pairs". When picking up one airwire of such

>> a pair, both signals will be routed in parallel, keeping the distance

>> as defined in the net class.

 

does that mean there will be more than 7 net classes?

We were thinking about increasing this number to 16.

Klaus Schmidinger

--

_______________________________________________________________

Klaus Schmidinger                       Phone: +49-8635-6989-10

CadSoft Computer GmbH                   Fax:   +49-8635-6989-40

Pleidolfweg 15                          Email:   kls@cadsoft.de

D-84568 Pleiskirchen, Germany           URL:     www.cadsoft.de

_______________________________________________________________

"Klaus Schmidinger" <Klaus.Schmidinger@cadsoft.de> wrote in message

news:j5hdh5$va6$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

In V6 the (manual) ROUTE command will treat signals that have the

same net class and the same name (one ending with '+' and the other

with '-') as "differential pairs". When picking up one airwire of such

a pair, both signals will be routed in parallel, keeping the distance

as defined in the net class.

You should be a bit careful about using the + and - signs. It works as long

as you dont export netfiles to other tools, but + and - in names are often a

source of confusion and problems. As an example, we export netnames

connected to FPGA's and feed them into the pin assignment files. That tool

will not allow + and - and simply replacing it with something else is a

potential source of conflict.

Klaus Schmidinger wrote on Fri, 23 September 2011 03:46

This can't guarantee the same length for both signals, so there

will also be a new command that generates "meanders" to compensate

for length differences, or to create a fixed total length of a

differential pair.

Klaus, will this new command that adds "meanders" be able to take a list of

signals, not just a diff pair?  If so, it could be used to equalize trace

lengths across a bus like DDR, DDR2,  etc.

You may also want to make sure you add parameters for the tolerance allowed

for difference in lengths, both longer and shorter.  Once it's good enough

then the function can stop, where "good enough" is a parameter to the

command.

Cheers,

James.

--

James Morrison  ~~~  Stratford Digital

Specializing in CadSoft EAGLE

• Online Sales to North America

• Electronic Design Services

• EAGLE Enterprise Toolkit

--

Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

Klaus Schmidinger wrote on Fri, 23 September 2011 03:46

In V6 the (manual) ROUTE command will treat signals that have the

same net class and the same name (one ending with '+' and the other

with '-') as "differential pairs". When picking up one airwire of such

a pair, both signals will be routed in parallel, keeping the distance

as defined in the net class.

It's good that you are adding the capbility to keep traces together, but

this should not be driven from the net names.  Automatic features like that

may seem like they are saving time, but in the long run always cause

trouble.  If two signals are to be routed together, I want to tell Eagle

that explicitly and never have it think it knows somehow on its own.  For

example, I have some existing designs with signal names D+ and D-, but I

don't necessarily want them routed together.

Within the existing Eagle framework, it's probably best if this were a

property of net classes.  When this property is set, then all signals in

the class will be routed together.  It's up to me to explicitly put such

signals in their own net class and then enable the property.  Please,

nothing automatic.

--

Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

(for some reason my phone nntp reader doesnt quote some msgs)

I think a simple external list of complementary(diff) or grouped(buses)

netnames would handle this issue nicely. It does not have to be tied to any

objects.

On 23.09.2011 16:31, Olin Lathrop wrote:

Klaus Schmidinger wrote on Fri, 23 September 2011 03:46

>> In V6 the (manual) ROUTE command will treat signals that have the

>> same net class and the same name (one ending with '+' and the other

>> with '-') as "differential pairs". When picking up one airwire of such

>> a pair, both signals will be routed in parallel, keeping the distance

>> as defined in the net class.

>

It's good that you are adding the capbility to keep traces together, but

this should not be driven from the net names.  Automatic features like that

may seem like they are saving time, but in the long run always cause

trouble.  If two signals are to be routed together, I want to tell Eagle

that explicitly and never have it think it knows somehow on its own.  For

example, I have some existing designs with signal names D+ and D-, but I

don't necessarily want them routed together.

 

Within the existing Eagle framework, it's probably best if this were a

property of net classes.  When this property is set, then all signals in

the class will be routed together.  It's up to me to explicitly put such

signals in their own net class and then enable the property.  Please,

nothing automatic.

That would mean you need one net class for each differential pair.

Not very practical.

There has to be some way of identifying which two signals form

a differential pair, and that's going to be via the signal names.

We can discuss which way this is done, so if '+' and '-' appear

inappropriate, we could use "_P" and "_N".

Klaus Schmidinger

--

_______________________________________________________________

Klaus Schmidinger                       Phone: +49-8635-6989-10

CadSoft Computer GmbH                   Fax:   +49-8635-6989-40

Pleidolfweg 15                          Email:   kls@cadsoft.de

D-84568 Pleiskirchen, Germany           URL:     www.cadsoft.de

_______________________________________________________________

On 23.09.2011 15:47, Morten Leikvoll wrote:

"Klaus Schmidinger"<Klaus.Schmidinger@cadsoft.de>  wrote in message

news:j5hdh5$va6$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

>> In V6 the (manual) ROUTE command will treat signals that have the

>> same net class and the same name (one ending with '+' and the other

>> with '-') as "differential pairs". When picking up one airwire of such

>> a pair, both signals will be routed in parallel, keeping the distance

>> as defined in the net class.

 

You should be a bit careful about using the + and - signs. It works as long

as you dont export netfiles to other tools, but + and - in names are often a

source of confusion and problems. As an example, we export netnames

connected to FPGA's and feed them into the pin assignment files. That tool

will not allow + and - and simply replacing it with something else is a

potential source of conflict.

We could just as well use something more exotic, like "_P" and "_N".

Klaus Schmidinger

--

_______________________________________________________________

Klaus Schmidinger                       Phone: +49-8635-6989-10

CadSoft Computer GmbH                   Fax:   +49-8635-6989-40

Pleidolfweg 15                          Email:   kls@cadsoft.de

D-84568 Pleiskirchen, Germany           URL:     www.cadsoft.de

_______________________________________________________________

On 23.09.2011 15:47, Morten Leikvoll wrote:

"Klaus Schmidinger"<Klaus.Schmidinger@cadsoft.de>  wrote in message

news:j5hdh5$va6$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

>> In V6 the (manual) ROUTE command will treat signals that have the

>> same net class and the same name (one ending with '+' and the other

>> with '-') as "differential pairs". When picking up one airwire of such

>> a pair, both signals will be routed in parallel, keeping the distance

>> as defined in the net class.

 

You should be a bit careful about using the + and - signs. It works as long

as you dont export netfiles to other tools, but + and - in names are often a

source of confusion and problems. As an example, we export netnames

connected to FPGA's and feed them into the pin assignment files. That tool

will not allow + and - and simply replacing it with something else is a

potential source of conflict.

We could just as well use something more exotic, like "_P" and "_N".

Klaus Schmidinger

--

_______________________________________________________________

Klaus Schmidinger                       Phone: +49-8635-6989-10

CadSoft Computer GmbH                   Fax:   +49-8635-6989-40

Pleidolfweg 15                          Email:   kls@cadsoft.de

D-84568 Pleiskirchen, Germany           URL:     www.cadsoft.de

_______________________________________________________________

Hi!

Am Freitag, den 23.09.2011, 18:24 +0200 schrieb Klaus Schmidinger:

On 23.09.2011 15:47, Morten Leikvoll wrote:

"Klaus Schmidinger"<Klaus.Schmidinger@cadsoft.de>  wrote in message

news:j5hdh5$va6$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

>> In V6 the (manual) ROUTE command will treat signals that have the

>> same net class and the same name (one ending with '+' and the other

>> with '-') as "differential pairs". When picking up one airwire of such

>> a pair, both signals will be routed in parallel, keeping the distance

>> as defined in the net class.

 

You should be a bit careful about using the + and - signs. It works as long

as you dont export netfiles to other tools, but + and - in names are often a

source of confusion and problems. As an example, we export netnames

connected to FPGA's and feed them into the pin assignment files. That tool

will not allow + and - and simply replacing it with something else is a

potential source of conflict.

 

We could just as well use something more exotic, like "_P" and "_N".

I second the thoughts on the '+' and '-' chars in names.

As you have written, you don't like to add another kind of a setting to

specify which signals belong together, we might only have the naming.

What do you think of making the naming configurable? The default could

be:

- '-' / '+'

- '_n' / '_p'

(both, but only within its little groups). But this should be possible

to change with a dialog or "set" command. If somebody wants signals with

that name ending, but not have them routed together, just remove the

setting for that schematic/board. If somebody wants special name endings

for differential pairs, e.g. '_PLUS' and '_MINUS', he simply sets it

accordingly.

So it would be nice to have zero to "a few" pair name ends to be setup.

Thanks

  Hansi

Would it be reasonable to make this a bus property, rather than a property of net classes or of individual signals?  As long as you allow nets to be part of more than one logical bus, it's not a big hardship to require users to associate a bus with signals that need to be routed for minimal timing skew.

Using bus notation would permit groups of more than two signals to be routed for equal length, which IMHO is required for this feature to be of any real use.

Johann Glaser <Johann.Glaser@gmx.at> wrote:

Hi!

 

Am Freitag, den 23.09.2011, 18:24 +0200 schrieb Klaus Schmidinger:

>> On 23.09.2011 15:47, Morten Leikvoll wrote:

>>> "Klaus Schmidinger"<Klaus.Schmidinger@cadsoft.de>  wrote in message

>>> news:j5hdh5$va6$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

>>>> In V6 the (manual) ROUTE command will treat signals that have the

>>>> same net class and the same name (one ending with '+' and the other

>>>> with '-') as "differential pairs". When picking up one airwire of such

>>>> a pair, both signals will be routed in parallel, keeping the distance

>>>> as defined in the net class.

>>>

>>> You should be a bit careful about using the + and - signs. It works as long

>>> as you dont export netfiles to other tools, but + and - in names are often a

>>> source of confusion and problems. As an example, we export netnames

>>> connected to FPGA's and feed them into the pin assignment files. That tool

>>> will not allow + and - and simply replacing it with something else is a

>>> potential source of conflict.

>>

>> We could just as well use something more exotic, like "_P" and "_N".

 

I second the thoughts on the '+' and '-' chars in names.

 

As you have written, you don't like to add another kind of a setting to

specify which signals belong together, we might only have the naming.

 

What do you think of making the naming configurable? The default could

be:

- '-' / '+'

- '_n' / '_p'

(both, but only within its little groups). But this should be possible

to change with a dialog or "set" command. If somebody wants signals with

that name ending, but not have them routed together, just remove the

setting for that schematic/board. If somebody wants special name endings

for differential pairs, e.g. '_PLUS' and '_MINUS', he simply sets it

accordingly.

 

So it would be nice to have zero to "a few" pair name ends to be setup.

You also have to consider that its not always practical to have this in the

suffix. A prefix is just as logical. Also somewhere in the middle. Think

for example an lvds BUS where you want an numeric index as prefix.

On 09/24/11 11:46, Johann Glaser wrote:

Hi!

 

Am Freitag, den 23.09.2011, 18:24 +0200 schrieb Klaus Schmidinger:

>> On 23.09.2011 15:47, Morten Leikvoll wrote:

>>> "Klaus Schmidinger"<Klaus.Schmidinger@cadsoft.de>   wrote in message

>>> news:j5hdh5$va6$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

>>>> In V6 the (manual) ROUTE command will treat signals that have the

>>>> same net class and the same name (one ending with '+' and the other

>>>> with '-') as "differential pairs". When picking up one airwire of such

>>>> a pair, both signals will be routed in parallel, keeping the distance

>>>> as defined in the net class.

>>>

>>> You should be a bit careful about using the + and - signs. It works as long

>>> as you dont export netfiles to other tools, but + and - in names are often a

>>> source of confusion and problems. As an example, we export netnames

>>> connected to FPGA's and feed them into the pin assignment files. That tool

>>> will not allow + and - and simply replacing it with something else is a

>>> potential source of conflict.

>>

>> We could just as well use something more exotic, like "_P" and "_N".

 

I second the thoughts on the '+' and '-' chars in names.

 

As you have written, you don't like to add another kind of a setting to

specify which signals belong together, we might only have the naming.

 

What do you think of making the naming configurable? The default could

be:

  - '-' / '+'

  - '_n' / '_p'

(both, but only within its little groups). But this should be possible

to change with a dialog or "set" command. If somebody wants signals with

that name ending, but not have them routed together, just remove the

setting for that schematic/board. If somebody wants special name endings

for differential pairs, e.g. '_PLUS' and '_MINUS', he simply sets it

accordingly.

 

So it would be nice to have zero to "a few" pair name ends to be setup.

This would mean the selection would have to be stored in the schematic/board,

and thus would make combining two files from different sources

("design reuse") virtually impossibe.

A fixed convention avoids such problems altogether.

Klaus Schmidinger

--

_______________________________________________________________

Klaus Schmidinger                       Phone: +49-8635-6989-10

CadSoft Computer GmbH                   Fax:   +49-8635-6989-40

Pleidolfweg 15                          Email:   kls@cadsoft.de

D-84568 Pleiskirchen, Germany           URL:     www.cadsoft.de

_______________________________________________________________