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EAGLE User Support (English) Adding despiking capacitors
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Related

Adding despiking capacitors

scheveningen
scheveningen over 12 years ago

Hi Jorge,

 

I have designed my schematic in Eagle and I want to add despiking capacitors. They have to be close to the chip.

The manual is saying something about the INVOKE command, but not very clear? How do I add these small

despiking capacitors?

 

 

Please advise,

Very respectfully,

peter

(from The Hague Holland)

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  • autodeskguest
    0 autodeskguest over 11 years ago

    If you really want one that will drive you nuts, take a board with a bunch

    of TTL on it where you forgot to connect VCC to a chip such as the 7400

    (quad 2-input NAND).  If any input is high, it powers the chip and the

    other 3 gates work correctly.  You will pull your hair out the first couple

    of times you run into something like that (back in the wire wrap days).

    You learned to first check power and ground on all the chips THEN go into

    troubleshooting mode.  Still have a bunch of TTL stuff downstairs.

     

    mikey

     

    --

    Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

     

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  • reverseemf
    0 reverseemf over 11 years ago in reply to D_Hersey

    "People sometimes try to use 'lytics here, which is IMHO a mistake for high-speed circuitry.  If you disagree with me, please be gentle, but they just, often, aren't fast enough."

     

    No, I agree.  Electrolytics tend to have a large inductive component, so are lousy for absorbing transition spikes which typically have frequency components that appear as high impedance at the inductance of a typical electrolytic.

     

    "You can, if you have room, make helpful decouplers on a multi-layer board by using the power planes under the chip,"

     

    I doubt there would be enough capacitance to make a difference in most cases.

     

    "Supply traces should be thicker than signal traces, sometimes to the point of employing bus-bars."

     

    Supply traces should be thick enough to deliver the peak current without critical voltage loss ["critical" is defined by the application].  Signal traces can, typically, be smaller [as most signals are conveyed with little or no current], but they don't have to be.  They, can, in fact, be as large as the supply traces -- if there is room.  And, in fact, this would come closer to satisfying the "don't etch copper unnecessarily" rule.

     

    Decoupling is required on devices that generate current spikes when transitioning.  The totem-pole outputs on TTL devices cause substantial current spikes because as they transition from 1 to 0 or vice-versa, there is a short period where both the upper and lower transistor is on, thus providing a low impedance path from supply to ground.  This is less of an issue in CMOS devices -- and that's the extent of my knowledge--as I'm sure there is nuance in the many other logic families and such.  The despiking capacitor must behave like a capacitor at the frequencies produced by the spike AND must store enough energy to supply enough current during the transition so that current isn't pulled from the supply line.  The resistance path from the capacitor to the logic device must be low enough for the RC time constant to be faster than the frequencies involved AND the impedance through that same path must be low enough to allow the full spike current to flow from the capacitor to the IC AND the resonant frequency of the tank circuit created by the two series inductors created by the traces and the capacitance of the despiking capacitor must be much higher than the highest circuit frequency.  This is why the despiking capacitor needs to be close to the logic device -- because the traces, like all wires, act like inductors and if too long, will have an inductance that presents a high impedance path between the capacitor and the logic device.  And, in fact, ringing can occur, making the problem worse.  Because the traces are inductors, they, in concert with the capacitor, produce a tank circuit.

     

    I learned about the importance of despiking capacitors from the failure experienced by a friend of mine.  He prototyped an elaborate TTL circuit and it acted nothing like what he intended.  It had numerous counters that kept skipping counts and flip-flop states that kept transitioning when they shouldn't - it was a real mess.

     

    This was back when TTL brand new and strange -- we hit the books and finally learned about despiking capacitors.  After a liberal dusting, it started acting better, producing, nearly the intended result.  Soon after that, we learned about synchronous counters -- heck we were just a couple of teenagers--what did we know image

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  • mcb1
    0 mcb1 over 12 years ago in reply to autodeskguest

    And that was with no redundant cooling system.

     

    Once we went to transistorized equipment, the rodent problem in winter seemed to also drop.

     

    Mark

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  • autodeskguest
    0 autodeskguest over 12 years ago in reply to mcb1

    An interesting read:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compactron

     

    I remember back in '68 or so Popular Electronics had an article on a guy

    with some sort of surplus computer he purchased. All tubes.  Took up his

    whole shop and required something like a 20 ton air conditioner to keep it

    cool.

     

    mikey

     

    --

    Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

     

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  • mcb1
    0 mcb1 over 12 years ago in reply to autodeskguest

    remember the old "compactrons"

    No sorry don't recall those, but I do recall the introduction of 'thick film technology'

    An engineer came and spoke to us and told us they were far too complicated for us to understand.

    (he was lucky the high voltage was away that day)

     

    We used the valve transmitter for the taxi channel as a 'pie warmer' (before microwaves) at a station ... very handy.

    Mark

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  • mcb1
    0 mcb1 over 12 years ago in reply to autodeskguest

    100 mixed chips on a wirewrapped card

    (remember the IC socketswith the 0.1ufd caps in them?

    I remember them but luckily never had to work with them.

    I do remember getting some nasty shocks poking around in there

    I recall one of my fellow workers whom had grown used to 12v equipment, doing some leaping around as the high voltage got him ... image

     

    When you talk about valves now some of them think you're bonkers .... why would you have a thing that stops air coming out in your electronics ...

     

    I said in another post ...

    people don't understand magic smoke ....  even after you explain it doesn't work if you release it .... they still don't get it.

    We should go back to valves so they can see where its held.

     

     

     

    Mark

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  • autodeskguest
    0 autodeskguest over 12 years ago in reply to mcb1

    How about the predecessor to the Integrated Circuit from the vacuum tube

    (valve) side - remember the old "compactrons" - they actually had several

    devices inside one glass envelope.  They were around for a few years.  And,

    if you had a bunch of tube equipment, you had no need for heat in your

    building!  Yeah, 200-400 volts could get your attention if you got your

    fingers on it while poking around.  Everybody laughed, you got back up off

    the floor and went back to work

     

    mikey

     

    --

    Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

     

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  • autodeskguest
    0 autodeskguest over 12 years ago in reply to mcb1

    Ah the old days of 100 mixed chips on a wirewrapped card.  We frantically

    sprinkled 0.1ufd ceramic caps all over the place (remember the IC sockets

    with the 0.1ufd caps in them?).  Without proper bypassing, you could spend

    weeks trying to troubleshoot a board only to discover the issue was

    switching transients causing all your problems.  Didn't have these issues

    with vacuum tubes, but I do remember getting some nasty shocks poking

    around in there image

     

    mikey

     

    --

    Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

     

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  • mcb1
    0 mcb1 over 12 years ago in reply to autodeskguest

    mikey

    You are so correct.

    I guess as old timers we remember our training and sort of jump to the end ..ie a clean power supply.

    Knowing that to have a clean power supply you have removed the mains/switching ripple at the supply, then removed the switching transients caused by the logic (or other) again at the source.

    We've also ignored that we know the appropriate type of capacitor to use for each instance.

     

    Thanks for reminding me to not overlook the bits that became ingrained during our training.

     

    Mark

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  • autodeskguest
    0 autodeskguest over 12 years ago in reply to Problemchild

    Decoupling caps actually provide 2 services - most people think they help

    keep the power clean to the logic chips.  That is true, HOWEVER, they also

    are there to prevent the logic chips from putting their switching noise

    back on the power line for the other chips.  Many people look at from the

    standpoint of if the power is clean, then everything on the board will be

    fine and forget that switching transients from different families of logic

    can be pretty nasty.  TTL used to have a bunch of issues like that (but I

    date myself ... )

     

    mikey

     

    --

    Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

     

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