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Related

New Pico W

mp2100
mp2100 over 3 years ago

I guess I should have guessed what all that empty space on the original Raspberry Pi Pico board was for.  They put a WiFi 802.11N chip there. CYW43439 from Infineon. This will be a nice board for IoT.  And it's cheap.  $6.

https://www.raspberrypi.com/news/raspberry-pi-pico-w-your-6-iot-platform/

image

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  • shabaz
    shabaz over 3 years ago

    I'm going to wait until it's a bit more mature : ) Just historically it takes Pi org a while to sort things out. I couldn't see in the user docs how the credentials are secured (I hope they get sent into the Infineon chip and stored there). 

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  • ntewinkel
    ntewinkel over 3 years ago in reply to shabaz

    It looks like this first round is their "mvp" "minimal" get it out the door option. In the write up they state: "we have not enabled Bluetooth on Pico W at launch, but may do so in the future."  So there's some work still left to do. To fully compete with the ESP32 lineup they will need to get all of that functionality running, but Espressive has quite the head start, so I'm with you on the wait and see bit. I'd be up for a round of experimentation though if e14 sends out samples :) 

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  • shabaz
    shabaz over 3 years ago in reply to ntewinkel

    Agree, ESP32 is exceptionally good, with excellent C libraries for functionality, and super-mature. I've not tried MicroPython on ESP32 so I don't know what that's like. I hope the Pico network library is stable and becomes feature-rich soon.. and BLE is very important too! 

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  • cstanton
    cstanton over 3 years ago in reply to shabaz

    Have you ever had serial clock or power issues with ESP32? Almost every person I've known work with it has had issues with the 3v3 power on their dev boards.

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  • shabaz
    shabaz over 3 years ago in reply to cstanton

    I haven't seen any issue so far, but I don't have a dev board, I've soldered the ESP32 module onto a breakout board, and then wired that to the 3.3V supply.

    For the supply, I've used a single cell LiPo, and then wired that to a LTC3534 chip, which is a buck-boost to 3.3V, at up to 500 mA (the ESP32 may need about ~260 mA peak for WiFi, from memory - I may have got that wrong). That worked well.

    However, the LTC3534 is expensive, so for a homemade dev-board PCB layout that I was working on, I decided to use TPS63031 instead, it was a lot cheaper, however now it has a 2-year lead-time : ( Since then, I've considered replacing it with MP2171GJ-Z which is a buck converter so not as good, but at least it's available, and low-cost.

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  • shabaz
    shabaz over 3 years ago in reply to cstanton

    Just peeked at the Pico-W datasheet, they are using a RT6154 buck-boost (PDF datasheet), which looks good, but zero stock everywhere.

    image

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  • ntewinkel
    ntewinkel over 3 years ago in reply to cstanton

    I’m still just using the old 8266 WeMos d1 mini boards for my sensors, and they’re surprisingly reliable at super low prices. No BLE on those though. I did get some esp32 boards to experiment with over the winter, but renovations and other physical labour projects kept me too busy. I’m hoping the BLE allows for a nicer wifi provisioning experience.

     Please don’t get me wrong though - I can sound (very Laughing) negative when it’s really just my musings out loud. I’m excited to see this new affordable  wifi dev board option from the Pi foundation - I expect some new-product issues but I have faith that they’ll ultimately have a sweet little easy to program wifi board at easy to afford pricing.

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  • ntewinkel
    ntewinkel over 3 years ago in reply to ntewinkel

    I should add that the current existing Pi Pico is already pretty amazing. The size, power, and price, as well as the easy python programming, makes it a much nicer option for my projects than the very limited digispark and pro-mini type boards at similar costs. I’m not sure how the Pico compares for power use, but I’m only using plug-in usb powered projects at the moment.

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  • cstanton
    cstanton over 3 years ago in reply to shabaz
    shabaz said:
    I haven't seen any issue so far, but I don't have a dev board, I've soldered the ESP32 module onto a breakout board, and then wired that to the 3.3V supply.

    That would be a good explanation why you haven't had problems then :) it'd make sense that the configuration the people I've known use it may have some questionable issue with the boards they've had, I don't have a link to hand else I'd share it.

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  • cstanton
    cstanton over 3 years ago in reply to shabaz
    shabaz said:
    I haven't seen any issue so far, but I don't have a dev board, I've soldered the ESP32 module onto a breakout board, and then wired that to the 3.3V supply.

    That would be a good explanation why you haven't had problems then :) it'd make sense that the configuration the people I've known use it may have some questionable issue with the boards they've had, I don't have a link to hand else I'd share it.

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  • shabaz
    shabaz over 3 years ago in reply to cstanton

    There's a weird trend to locate components in rows etc, like this:

    image

    Not saying that's the cause (sometimes it's worse, this layout might be acceptable) but there isn't any technical reason for laying out the components like this, and that just makes me wonder if the design is suboptimal in other ways too. 

    I used the same LDO regulator as in the photo above for a project, but laid it out like this, no neat row of components, and a bit of heatsinking at least.

    image

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  • cstanton
    cstanton over 3 years ago in reply to shabaz
    shabaz said:

    There's a weird trend to locate components in rows etc, like this:

    Either people really like orthogonal organisation, or it's faster for the pick and place machine when it's distributing multiple components of the same type close together.


    shabaz said:
    I used the same LDO regulator as in the photo above for a project, but laid it out like this, no neat row of components, and a bit of heatsinking at least.

    I'm no PCB designer, though I keep meaning to try, what do you tend to aim for when you're designing like this? cost or some other factors?

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  • shabaz
    shabaz over 3 years ago in reply to cstanton

    Ah, that might be the reason, I believe some of the PnP machines have multiple heads to pick up more than one part for the same vicinity of the board as you say.

    Generally I'm trying to dimension the board and place connectors etc first, at nice millimetre positions, so that I can cut enclosures easier, and then roughly place the components where they are close to others in the same sub-circuit, and attempt to just route in the sub-circuit and then occasionally move some of the sub-circuits around on the board, sometimes change the schematic to make the routing easier (e.g. I almost always change connector pinouts, that's low-hanging fruit to make routing simpler), and then once it is all routed, personally I un-route and re-route in sections, rotating components and fine-positioning them at this point, because I can't get it done well in the first go. So for me, I end up routing things almost twice. I'm no PCB designer either, so I don't know if the experienced people manage to do it right in a more efficient way.

    With the ICs like the LDO regulator above, the datasheet is usually followed if it has guidelines or example layouts, or for more complex chips I'll take a look at the reference board for them. The decoupling capacitors I'll try to get one end of them (the positive end) as close to the pin on the IC as possible, and then make the other end go to ground through a couple of vias (the other side of the board is easiest if it's almost entirely ground). If I can't achieve an entire ground on the underside, then I'll aim for only short traces on the underside if possible.

    For instance for the PCB in the example above, the underside looks like this (only very short traces where I couldn't manage to route on the top side): (The split is only because this board had an isolated ground side, that's not normally present on most boards):

    image 

    I rarely make things very compact, so I'm more likely to aim for a board that's possibly larger, and easy to work with and easy to fit in a standard case (I don't have the ability to do CAD enclosure design and 3D print). For some boards, I might not aim to fit into a case, but I'll put holes on the corners so that it can be (say) sandwiched between perspex sheets if needed.

    Also, I'll aim for placing extra components, like 0-ohm resistors, to join sub-circuits, in case I need to disconnect a portion while testing. I also won't try to cost-reduce by removing decoupling capacitors etc., since I'm not making anything in high volume (commercial products also don't always cost-reduce, for high-end products they will not try to reduce decoupling capacitors either, or pick the cheapest components, it's not worth the risk to product reliability, at least not unless there is a cost reduction exercise later during the product life-cycle). 

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  • shabaz
    shabaz over 3 years ago in reply to cstanton

    Before microcontroller breakout or dev-boards were cheap : ) we would design our own boards each time we wanted to try a new processor. The manufacturer boards were too expensive unless you were 100% sure you were going to use the chip in a design, because the manufacturer board often had exotic in-circuit emulator on-board, and sometimes even fancy IC sockets for the target chip (even for surface-mount ICs - the sockets cost $$$) and the manufacturer dev board could cost thousands (today there are still dev-boards that cost thousands of course, but nowadays often they are for more high-end parts, sometimes lower volume devices).

    Here's a dev-board for a Renesas/Hitachi processor, I designed the schematic (and as usual messed up the RS232 pin directions on the MAX202 chip, there are two blue bodge wires there : ) and just made sure to place some components that could be handy for testing or perhaps useful for the actual end product, but mostly just pin header connections. I also put LEDs onto eight or so pins (visible near the bottom of the board), to use as debug. I didn't do the PCB layout, that was done by a professional PCB designer.

    image

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  • genebren
    genebren over 3 years ago in reply to shabaz

    I still build all of my own boards for my projects.  I write all of my code in bare metal style so that I can be absolutely sure that the software does what I want it to.

    Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate some of these amazing boards, but I just don't find them as easy to use and customize as I do building from scratch.

    There are times when I use a development board to test out a new processor (I think that I have bought 5 recently).

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