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Member's Forum Is anyone interested with the Z80?
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  • z80
Related

Is anyone interested with the Z80?

COMPACT
COMPACT over 9 years ago

The Z80 is still manufactured today and I was wondering whether there is any interest for a community or discussion group.

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  • Workshopshed
    Workshopshed over 9 years ago in reply to COMPACT +9
    Here's some of the books I learnt about Z80 from, I donated them to the Cambridge computer history museum last year.
  • Former Member
    Former Member over 9 years ago +6
    This is the circuit I made boards for sometime back to get people playing with them:
  • gdstew
    gdstew over 8 years ago in reply to COMPACT +6
    I worked at Mostek maintaining the Fairchild Sentry testers used to test the Z80s when they first began to manufacturer them. The second computer I every built (parts, pcb, solder) was the SDB-80 which…
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  • COMPACT
    COMPACT over 8 years ago

    Did you know that the Z80 has different memory access timings for instruction fetches and standard memory accesses?

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  • gdstew
    gdstew over 8 years ago in reply to COMPACT

    I worked at Mostek maintaining the Fairchild Sentry testers used to test the Z80s when they first began to manufacturer them. The second computer I every

    built (parts, pcb, solder) was the SDB-80 which was the Mostek Software Development Board for the Z80 with 16K bytes (8 - MK4116 16K bit) dynamic RAMs

    which Mostek also made. The first wire wrap board I ever made was a 48K byte dynamic RAM board also using MK4116s that worked with the SDB-80. I can

    tell you there were a bunch of happy technicians when we were told that Mostek would be second sourcing the Z-80 and even happier when we were told we

    could buy SDB-80 kits and build them ourselves! Those were really fun days. I still have a Zilog Z80 in a ceramic package that says it was manufactured in

    Dallas even though Mostek was actually in Carrollton a suburb in Dallas County just north of north-west Dallas.

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  • raylec
    raylec over 6 years ago in reply to shabaz

    Hi Shabaz,

     

    As Appendices at the end of the 276 page PC-1600 Tech Ref Manual I found mnemonics, op-codes, and what have you of both the SC- and the

    LH-processor. Not my cup of thea, really ... But maybe someone else finds the clues, required to answer the question: was LH-5801/3 a Z80

    derivative, or not ?

    For me Chapter 7 is much more evocative, and it confirms my belief all along, that not only 'Ol Blue Eyes did everything "My Way" ...

    It is quite impressive what Sharp has integrated on-chip*, next to the processor 'core' - this goes for the Z80A derivative, as well as for the LH.

    I've called what they have packed into this pocketcomputer "no mean feat". If you look at the features, you can say that again:

    - 3 microprocessors, two 8-bit main CPUs (one emulating the PC-1500A a.o.) + one 4-bit subprocessor (I/O)

    - 3 x 36 kB ROM

    - RS-232C I/F

    - serial optical I/F, 38.4 kbaud

    - analog input (ADC)

    - automatic power off with external wake-up from peripheral

    - floppy and RAM-disk options

    - 60-pin fully programmable system/expansion bus output

    - 2 memory module slots

     

    Impressive ? Sure ! A joy to work with (as a programmer or a user) ? Not really ... And that's a shame.

    PC-1600 has never been able to replace PC-1500A in the market, possibly because it became the victim of its own over-complexity ?

    At the time (mid eighties and on) Sharp had already her organizer concept ready, later shared in the PDA concept with Apple (Newton),

    and so probably didn't care too much ... (PC-12xx, 14xx, E200, and E500 series thriving)

     

    Cheers

    Ray

    * a.o. the complete port processor, LH-5811, of PC-1500 in the SC main CPU

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  • raylec
    raylec over 6 years ago in reply to raylec

    Hi COMPACT,

     

    May I add another PC-1500A project story in response to your earlier interest, and present that, assuming you have also read my posts to Shabaz ?

    (It would be boring i.m.o. to tell intertwined stories to two forum members, as if they didn't read each others 'incoming' posts, wouldn't it ?)

     

    This story unfolded in the aftermath of PC-1500A's demise - ending in the permafrost of Siberia ...

    As the story hasn't anything to do per se with Z80, does it interest you, and would it be acceptable in this thread ?

     

    Would appreciate hearing from you

    Cheers

    Ray

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  • dougw
    dougw over 6 years ago in reply to raylec

    You could put a link here to your own blog, or put the story here. I can't speak for everyone but either would be fine with me.

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  • raylec
    raylec over 6 years ago in reply to dougw

    As a newbie to this forum, I'm afraid I don't quite understand.

    I don't have my own blog, and was responding to an 'invitation' by COMPACT.

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  • dougw
    dougw over 6 years ago in reply to raylec

    You can create your own blog on any topic just by clicking on the "Create" button at the top of the page.

    Threads like this Z80 topic just fade from view unless members keep adding anecdotes, so I think it is great to add stories directly to the thread, even if they are only peripherally related.

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  • raylec
    raylec over 6 years ago in reply to dougw

    Thanks for your explanation and friendly comment, Doug !

    I will certainly share my story in this blog, but hope you don't mind me waiting a bit for COMPACT to react ?

     

    Btw, I've always been intrigued by the Friends-Amis story in connection with Matsushita Corp., leading to the development of the HHC.

    Although based on the 6502 microprocessor, the resemblance to the design of the SHARP PC-1500 (including bay with peripheral) is

    striking. The idea behind it may have been original, but just assuming that Matsushita had no knowledge of the earlier presented SHARP

    pocket seems a case of blind faith.

    Apart from that, European companies, Olivetti and Nixdorf, should be included in stories about the history of the development from calculators

    to handhelds i.m.o.

     

    Cheers

    Ray

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  • raylec
    raylec over 6 years ago in reply to raylec

    Hi COMPACT and Doug,

     

    While the PC-1600 just didn't take off in the second half of the eighties, Sharp out of the blue discontinued the whole PC-1500A line. Among the

    large number of commercial users worldwide with business application programs, one company especially had a huge practical problem with that:

    Allianz, Germany's largest insurance company. They had abt. 50.000 (no typo !) PC-1500A systems for their commercial field service - now to be

    written off just like that !

    An other, very small, German company, having invested heavily in a rather unique application, decided, they could perhaps ensure continuity by

    purchasing several dozen used systems from Allianz. Thus in the aftermath of the PC-1500A era a remarkable opportunity presented itself for us

    (i.e. me and my son). Weilekes also was a father & son operation, who had devised a corrosion testing system for oil and gas pipes, to be used

    in Siberia. The PC-1500A system was choosen because of its virtual indestructability and reliability in harsh environments. If anything, the mate

    to the pocket computer - in fact a tiny 4-color plotter with system I/F - had to be overhauled meticulously. And that's where we came in.

    My son (15 at the time) had already done so with several of these cigarette-pack size little gems*. Next the NiCad pack had to be exchanged for

    a 'real' Sanyo (ask any model 'copter builder !). PC-1500A got a new keyboard switch mat, and any worn-out keys were replaced**. Refurbishing

    further included all connectors, scratched LCD windows - sometimes complete cases were replaced.

    Together with the Weilekes custom unit, the pocket computer + plotter were built into a special sort of cradle that the user wore like a candy seller

    in a movie theatre; except this one had to shield the equipment from Siberian climate ... Sensors connected to the cradle were used for the actual

    measurements. I believe these were basically resistance measurements - not surprisingly, taking into account the prominent position of German

    developpers in skin resistance measuring medical devices.

    What puzzles me now (was'nt aware of this then): both the former Soviet Union, and Hungary produced their own PC-1500A clone at the time;

    wasn't Gazprom aware, or didn't they care ...?

     

    Cheers

    Ray

    *of the Japanese ALPS brand, these days famous a.o. for its high-end audio-grade potentiometers

    **Sharp spare part sets with only the [SPACE] and [ENTER] keys came in very handy indeed

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  • COMPACT
    COMPACT over 6 years ago in reply to raylec

    I like your posts. They're fascinating!!

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  • Andrew J
    Andrew J over 6 years ago in reply to COMPACT

    I wholly agree!

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  • raylec
    raylec over 6 years ago in reply to raylec

    Thank you, COMPACT and Andrew Johnson !

    Think I'm just privileged, having lived (better still: mostly had my youth in) the era of:

    - the birth of the micropocessor

    - the development from calculators into hand-held computers

    - the 'transistorizing' of electronics

    - the chip revolution leading to "zero cost electronics" (Scientific American, 1975), and ultimately to hand-held communication devices

    - the development of LCD and similar display technology

    and so on ...

    It all began when awed by a self-built X-tal receiver, while visiting a cousin - almost mystically fascinating !

    Not only did I blend together one myself shortly after, but also began reading books on radio history from the school library (which didn't have

    anything DIY). And I got pretty jealous of inquisitive people like myself, who had been lucky enough to live during the age of say Heinrich Hertz,

    Marconi, and the like (unfortunately I discovered Tesla much later). So obviously, some people just cannot be pleased enough ... !

     

    Cheers

    Ray

    P.S.: the excitement of listening to your self-built X-tal receiver is similar to watching your first program do what you envisioned;

            in both cases, "you'll always remember your first time" ...

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  • raylec
    raylec over 6 years ago in reply to raylec

    Thank you, COMPACT and Andrew Johnson !

    Think I'm just privileged, having lived (better still: mostly had my youth in) the era of:

    - the birth of the micropocessor

    - the development from calculators into hand-held computers

    - the 'transistorizing' of electronics

    - the chip revolution leading to "zero cost electronics" (Scientific American, 1975), and ultimately to hand-held communication devices

    - the development of LCD and similar display technology

    and so on ...

    It all began when awed by a self-built X-tal receiver, while visiting a cousin - almost mystically fascinating !

    Not only did I blend together one myself shortly after, but also began reading books on radio history from the school library (which didn't have

    anything DIY). And I got pretty jealous of inquisitive people like myself, who had been lucky enough to live during the age of say Heinrich Hertz,

    Marconi, and the like (unfortunately I discovered Tesla much later). So obviously, some people just cannot be pleased enough ... !

     

    Cheers

    Ray

    P.S.: the excitement of listening to your self-built X-tal receiver is similar to watching your first program do what you envisioned;

            in both cases, "you'll always remember your first time" ...

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  • raylec
    raylec over 6 years ago in reply to raylec

    Come to think of it: I've also been privileged to live in the era of:

    - the dawn of music registration on vinyl

    - the transition (soon after) from mono to stereo

    - transistors displacing vacuum tubes (while becoming a swiftly expanding family)

    - the invasion of digital technology in the art of music registration and reproduction, culminating in the CD, but :

    x NO, don't feel privileged, having to witness music quality being slaughtered by ease-of-use driven technology,

       like MP3, streaming, and what have you ? (Microsoft 'eliminated' prof. Johnsons's HDCD, the best digital format ever).

     

    So, I feel privileged, being able to enjoy in the same lifetime:

    - the unsurpassed vibrancy of shellac disc mechanical replay with horn reproduction (thank you Canned Heat for pointing that out, back stage !)

    - the reappreciation of mono recordings and revival of mono music reproduction (even newly developed vinyl cartridges)

    - the vacuum tube revival (thanks mainly to Russia, China, and Eastern Europe - with NOS running out)

    - the reappreciation of pure Red Book, but moreover of analog audio in all its forms.

     

    How come ?

    Organizers gradually took over the pocket computer market, but mid nineties my son helped me realize, there was an end to this.

    His expertise (my former hobby) was (still is) high quality audio. So we decided to start our own import company - later developping

    proprietary products.

    What's the point in all of this ?

    In one word: digital ! While digital control of equipment functions is only remotely (pun intended) interesting, we focussed on DSP,

    digital signal processing. At first I was somewhat puzzled by the notion of losses in file conversion and transition - never encountered

    such problems while processing data files on a computer !  Admittedly, it took me some time to figure out the cause.

     

    Anyway, let me end this 'chapter' with a cliff-hanging anecdote:

    After we were asked frequently by the public, why we did not demonstrate with digital equipment at an audio show, we got tired of lengthy

    answers, followed by ditto discussions. So we devised a 'cunning plan': a large poster of the Mona Lisa was fed through a shredder, which

    we stopped just before the end was reached (if this seems familiar to you, having followed the news lately: we were fisrt !). Next we 'repaired'

    the poster with transparent 'magic tape'; then with a felt pen we wrote under the picture: "NICE, ISN'T IT: DIGITAL ?". Problem solved ...

     

    Cheers

    Ray

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  • clem57
    clem57 over 6 years ago in reply to raylec

    Reading this reminds me of how old I am. Even dirt seems young these days.

    Clem

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  • raylec
    raylec over 6 years ago in reply to clem57

    Hi Clem (if that's alright with you ?),

     

    Don't despair, I've become a 'grumpy old man' myself lately sometimes -:).

    (My wife was born in the middle of WW II, glad I missed that period - if only just).

    But writing about my experiences gives me the idea that it isn't all over, and of no use to anybody any more.

    If I can fill in some white spots in other members' memories and/or knowledge, like they have done in mine,

    that would make it worth my while (like they said in the old days). Just keeping readers amused is OK too, btw.

     

    I had to stop my electronics experiments a few years ago because of deteriorating eyesight. SPICE for me is no alternative, as I believe it can not

    reliably simulate a real novelty circuit. After all it stands to reason that you can't get out what has not been put in, can you ?

    So the only thing left for me to do is devising new circuits ... mentally, and hoping I can get someone interested enough to put my ideas to the test.

    Also rewarding is acting as a kind of sparring partner for my son, when he is figuring out, how to improve on existing vinyl cartridge cantilever

    design e.g..

     

    Hope I haven't annoyed you.

    Cheers

    Ray

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  • COMPACT
    COMPACT over 6 years ago in reply to raylec

    As for degrading eyesight I'm reliant upon my bench binocular microscope just to solder 1960's tech like DIP ICs and through hole.

    My spare parts are so old that I have to remove the unwanted oxide layer from them (just like my brain).

     

    I don't like too much SPICE in my food.

     

    Analog turntables - Don't get me started!  The analog signal is distorted prior to recording so it can be reverse distorted for playback to support the RIAA equalisation.

    And also seem to also ignore other distortion influences such as wow and flutter, stylus/cartridge momentum and contact friction variations

     

    Like oscilloscopes, sound should be sampled at about 5x or more than the desired maximum bandwidth.

    And how does one get a speaker to playback perfect square waves?

     

    All of this gives me the "jitters!"

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  • gdstew
    gdstew over 6 years ago in reply to COMPACT

    To the list of analog turntables (and vinyl records) problems vs CD you can add  poor channel separation, lower signal to noise, far less dynamic range, low frequency limits,

    groove wear, warping, inherent vulnerability to acoustic feedback, tracking problems, and less resistant to injury and corruption.

     

    As for reproducing square waves, as far as I know, no instrument other than electronic synthesizers produce anything that approaches the fast rise/fall times of a square wave.

    That said, there are several groups that I like that use(d) synthesizers.

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  • raylec
    raylec over 6 years ago in reply to COMPACT

    Hi COMPACT,

     

    My son has a binocular microscope for his cartridge repairs/mods - tried it, didn't work for me alas (btw: there's a not-so-steady-anymore hand

    to take into account as well). Thanks anyway for the uplifting tip.

     

    I've read enough disturbing reports by pro circuit designers to stay away from SPICE and the like. My WYSIWYG-like statement lacked nuance,

    that's true, but transitional phenomena e.g. are difficult to be measured correctly, and consequently just as difficult to predict/calculate/simulate.

    And my experiments were on so called linear PSUs; btw: there's practically nothing 'linear' really in the operation of these classic power supplies.

    As a result they are noisy, and hard to tame. Your average designer, however thinks, an overkill of microFarads + 'tripods' will easily cure this ...

    Audiots frequently spend big bucks on external power supply 'upgrades' - on top of the just mentioned cure, these contain big transformers

    with rediculous VA specs. While this might make sense for a power amp with underrated internal PSU, such upgrade PSUs for phono-amps are

    outrageous ! We have performed in-depth listening tests here, and concluded that the advertised pros - improved bass response and dynamics -

    didn't make up for the apparent loss of overall-quality: the music seemed robbed of its liveliness. Some team members stated: "As if an elephant

    is sitting on the sound".

     

    If you would want to consider RCA's Dynagroove technology* as a kind of early dithering, I would be with you, but calling RIAA equalisation

    distorting the signal ... Changing the tonal balance in no way fits the definition of distortion. It is in fact a perfectly rational adaptation to the medium.

    Its primary objective was optimizing playing time - so maybe one could call it a form of (physical) compression. The second aim, however is to

    diminish and limit distortion - i.e. tracking distortion ! The famous ADC XLM cartridge from the sixties arguably was one of the most agile ever,

    but it was not free from tracking distortion, of course. Here the question arises, how one is to discern between distortion caused by the vinyl

    registration process, and distortion from the cartridge tracking the groove with its needle.

     

    My son has done quite a bit of research in improving suspension in phono cartridges; he was surprised to find, how much there still is to be

    gained in terms of tracking distortion this way - the experiments were done with state-of-the-art commercial carts.

     

    (to be continued)

    Ray

    * dynamics at the end of the Pink Panther theme by Mancini e.g. really are impressive, but ... sure, it's just an effect - no HiFi.

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  • COMPACT
    COMPACT over 6 years ago in reply to raylec

    Rather than perfect technical reproduction, modern audiophiles try to recreate a sense of being there at the original recording. To achieve this serious audiophiles place their speakers about 6-12 feet from walls and bevel or curve all orthogonal corners of the listening room and use sound absorbent materials as necessary. Even the stylus adds its own colour and audiohphiles usually have a collection of different ones to use for different recordings.

    My Uncle is a really serious audiophile. He sends his used stylii cartidges to Switzerland to have them refurbished at $1,000 each, his pair of speakers cost about $500,000 and I'd hate to think how much he paid for is exotic Tube/Valve amp.

     

    For those who aren't so as rich,  a pair of ELAC Navis ARB-51 Active Speakers designed by Andrew Jones is getting great reviews.  These $1,000 speakers are devoid of any Digital Signal Processing.

     

    For me, I'm just happy to listen to my 1984 Sony D-50 Discman with headphones which still works today.

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  • raylec
    raylec over 6 years ago in reply to raylec

    Hi COMPACT,

     

    "Like oscilloscopes, sound should be sampled at about 5x or more than the desired maximum bandwidth", COMPACT wrote.

    This ex-Tektronix test & calibration engineer couldn't agree more, but ... at the time of development, this was technically way out of reach for the

    people working on e.g. the quadrophonic sound registration on vinyl, as well as those working on the Red Book standard.

    Nowdays, cartridges with a frequency range of up to 50 kHz are available, serving people who have been convinced that they need super-tweeters

    at the other end of their music reproduction chains ...

     

    "And how does one get a speaker to playback perfect square waves?", COMPACT asked.

    Peter Walker of QUAD Mfg fame came pretty close; in fact it was his ultimate way of testing (300 Hz) his almost single-handedly developped ESL

    (Electrostatic LoudSpeaker; (fifties). Ever auditioned one ? You will never forget the listening experience ! We've also enjoyed Martin Logan's CLS

    very much; of the electrodynamic units, Manger and Dynaudio probably have the best pulse responses. With ED speakers one tries to avoid square

    waves because reproducing the top part would mean sending DC trough the poor unit(s), which very few would survive eventually. Furthermore,

    audio is about reproducing natural sounds, not technical noises*; and music is the most complicated of sounds. Faithfully reproducing it means

    getting the rise and fall right - these coïncide with the attaque of the musical instrument played, and the decay of the resulting sound. The most

    demanding instrument attaque-wise, in terms of amplifier slew rate, turned out to be the harpsichord (& family), which is easy to understand once

    you look at its playing mechanism. The same cousin who introduced me to electronics via his self-built Xtal receiver, made replicas of famous old

    European harpsichords, together with his father (my godfather). I quickly grew to like the sound, that many audiophiles loathe. A possible cure might

    be listening to the first chords of Bach's Italian Concerto in a harpsichord rendition (as it was meant to be) - it sings so much more that way than on

    the piano ! (Try Glenn Gould's fifties recording vs. his almost anemiatic eighties registration by Sony).

     

    (to be continued)

    Ray

    * I know, that same Peter Walker in an interview made a statement in relation to his ESLs that seems to argue otherwise ...

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  • raylec
    raylec over 6 years ago in reply to raylec

    Hi COMPACT and Garry,

     

    (Better late than never:) I'm sorry, if I have provoked replies that to me read like a kind of vinyl bashing ... won't go into that, because the

    arguments are mostly too well-known to make a discussion in this day and age still worthwhile. I've been used to these arguments in audio

    circles, but didn't expect them here, to be honest. And the worn-out objective vs. subjective discussion - culminating in head vs. heart ratings -

    better be left alone, too, wouldn't you agree ?

    Never mind; I was in fact just closing off some musings with an anecdote, but perhaps it would have been wise to present it with a bit more

    context. Here that is yet.

    The show was during the vinyl revival in the nineties, and we only had a speaker brand plus hi-grade vinyl at the time - all the rest was borrowed

    from friendly colleague-importers. A high-grade CD-player was part of the demo set, but only used on request from our visitors. Btw, we didn't

    do analog vs. digital comparisons.

    The purpose of the shredded Mona Lisa poster was to show in a (simplified) pictorial manner, what digitizing is in essence. Apart from a good deal

    of laughter, we als got recognition by colleagues referring visitors to our demo room. Only Philips was 'not amused' (and that was long before we

    demoed the CD Clarifier the next year, thereby proving their slogan - "Perfect for Ever" - wrong; but that's an other story).

    I also like to make an other point: as an importer of high-grade audio, I had to audition/listen to numerous gear/sets. With a few exceptions

    the equipment was not 'my cup of tea', and I was pretty sure that I wouldn't be able to enjoy my music through it. Most of the time I tried to

    imagine however, what enthralled the owner/seller. And by doing so, I often succeeded in 'hearing his point' ...

     

    To prevent allegations that I'm living in the past, and that vinyl is obsolete, let me turn my eyes to the future* for a change: after virgin, HQ, and

    Quiet Vinyl, vinyl lovers recently were treated to (the promise of) the Holy Vinyl Grail: HD-Vinyl. Multi millions have been invested in this project

    that stems from the country where mr. Adolf H. was born, and that is frequently mixed up with your beloved 'Down Under', COMPACT. At the

    risk of being judged too critical this time (and even because the concept is basically on digital), I think it's a mad men's scheme, and am certainly

    not alone in that: https://www.analogplanet.com/content/hd-vinyl-exciting-concept-its-last-years-news .

     

    Cheers

    Ray

    * the commercial product has been announced several times - yet have seen nothing so far ...

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  • COMPACT
    COMPACT over 6 years ago in reply to raylec

    Take a look at this - I think it is impressive!

     

    http://www.fagginfoundation.org/biography/

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