Eagle v8 licensing...

http://www.altium.com/eagle-switch/altium-designer/

It was just a matter of time...

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EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

Joop14 wrote:

 

http://www.altium.com/eagle-switch/altium-designer/

 

It was just a matter of time...

 

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EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

 

I have to think that not many EAGLE users would be in a position to take up that offer. Even with the 40% off its going to be over $5000 and that only comes with one year of support and updates. After the first year you'd need to pay another $1500/year for a maintenance contract for support and updates. If you don't keep up on maintenance payments you'd likely be stung for back payments if you ever did need to update so realistically, most professional users are going to want to take that option rather than risk getting stuck with a problem and having to find a lot of money to get back onto maintenance in a hurry.

The people who will go for this would be those who were considering it anyway because they regularly do high end boards and the additional features of Altium would be a benefit but the full price was too much for them to swallow. For the majority of smaller companies the cost of Altium and the ongoing support cost is still likely too much. Yes Altium has some really nice features but EAGLE's really easy to use and can do moderately complex boards quickly and easy enough such that the step up to Altium isn't justified by the cost. If EAGLE adds better routing features then this need even for high end boards may be reduced.

So for the $500/year for an EAGLE Premium subscription, I could buy this for at least 10 years for the equivalent of the promotional price of Altium and for that I get 10 years of support. If I factor in the cost of maintenance I could have 4 EAGLE seats for the same price as 1 Altium seat in that 10 year period. Now, I know there is an issue with no perpetual license but in one of Matt Berggrens posts he stated that they would give an equivalent v7 license to fall back on with v8 subscriptions and a promise to ensure that a design could always be saved in a completely v7 compliant format so we then have a way to use EAGLE perpetually (See here: https://www.element14.com/community/thread/58485/l/eagle-license-recommendat-ion)

Best Regards,

Rachael

Hi Gerald,

Not wishing to be mistaken for an Autodesk employee again as I am not, but I will comment again anyway.

Gerald Schwarz wrote:

 

The problem is that the license QUALITY will falling back to the toy version after expiring the license period.

Customers are really punished with this action.

Why is this a problem? If you need to use it you renew your subscription. If you don't need to use it then you don't pay until you do.

Gerald Schwarz wrote:

 

! Most important: the license keeps in the last state of the paid category, and for the standard dimension a DIN A4 format with 16 layers .

With your suggestion somebody could pay $65 for a one month Premium subscription and then cancel and they would be able to use that Premium version forever. That's not financially viable for Autodesk (or any other company) to do a tool like this with that licensing model.

Taking this further, your suggestion of DIN A4 format and 16 layer for $10/month would pretty much wipe out all sales on Premium as those restrictions would probably cover the majority of users design requirements so they wouldn't need the Premium level. I'd love this amount in Standard but I think this is exceedingly unlikely!

Gerald Schwarz wrote:

 

-> what will i do, if i go in holidays for more than 14, or 31 days.....,

after then i switch on the software for an active or new project...,

and then the license will say "sorry...". My customers will also say "sorry...".

 

When you switch on your software it contacts the Autodesk servers and your software starts up and works again. They don't take it away and confiscate your subscription if your computer doesn't contact them The only issue is if you don't have internet access. This could be solved by Autodesk making the call home period equal to the license period, so if you had a three year subscription it would continue to work for three years before dialling home. It would still have to dial home for activating any updates but making the call home match the license period would remove a lot of concerns of people in remote or internet starved places.

Sorry if you think I am sticking up for Autodesk too much, I can understand peoples grievances with the licensing change, especially as Farnell tried to do this too (but in my opinion much worse and they implemented the dreaded flexlm licensing!), but quite frankly some peoples demands are going far beyond reasonable in the other direction. I think with a few more relatively benign tweaks to the licensing that I have mentioned in several threads over the last couple of days the majority of the issues could be resolved. I'm sure Autodesk are reading these suggestions, we'll just have to see if they come up with any additional concessions.

At the end of the day v7 is still a good product and I have that license so if v8 doesn't pan out for whatever reason I will fall back to that until I need capabilities beyond what it can give. I don't see the need for throwing tantrums on forums and ditching all of my existing setup because of a licensing change that won't cost me any more money. The people most negatively affected at the moment are people who previously had the non-commercial Maker license, that currently has no viable alternative so they have a legitimate reason to be disappointed as they have no equivalent path to v8.

Best Regards,

Rachael

rachaelp wrote on Tue, 21 February 2017 14:31

The people most negatively affected at the moment are people who

previously had the non-commercial Maker license, that currently has no

viable alternative so they have a legitimate reason to be disappointed as

they have no equivalent path to v8.

I own a perpetual license of EAGLE, schematic, board and autorouter.  I

think you and I are both waiting for some period of time to see if there is

any reason that we should consider a subscription.  During that time,

Autodesk might or might not create something wonderful that we have to

have.  We'll see.

I'm from the small business/DIY/hobby world and I'm a programmer by trade.

I understand that Autodesk needs to make money from EAGLE and make it fit

in with the rest of their product line.  On one hand, I hope that EAGLE

grows into the full-fledged product that it might be.  On the other, I am

now in a period of mourning because the old EAGLE and the community that

surrounded it has been fractured and is probably gone forever.

Yes, EAGLE itself is still as functional as it has ever been.  Yes, the

subscription pricing is probably reasonable.  But for me, and I think for

others, buying a copy of EAGLE (even though it's effectively only a license

to use the software) gave us a sense of ownership, of buy-in to a pretty

cool club.  Autodesk is too big to ever be that.  (Not their fault.)  That

old club has been disbanded.  EAGLE is now just another tool from a big

corporation.  Some day Jorge and Ed won't be the main support team any more

and the transition will be complete.

Yes, it's mainly emotions, but the people I used to share tips, tricks,

scripts, and designs with are all angry and looking to switch to other

products.  Like seeing an ex on the street, every time I start EAGLE, it

reminds me of the way things used to be and that things are different now.

This too shall pass...

--

EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

Doug Wellington wrote on Tue, 21 February 2017 22:37

rachaelp wrote on Tue, 21 February 2017 14:31

The people most negatively affected at the moment are people who

previously had the non-commercial Maker license, that currently has no

viable alternative so they have a legitimate reason to be disappointed

as they have no equivalent path to v8.

 

I own a perpetual license of EAGLE, schematic, board and autorouter.  I

think you and I are both waiting for some period of time to see if there

is any reason that we should consider a subscription.  During that time,

Autodesk might or might not create something wonderful that we have to

have.  We'll see.

 

I'm from the small business/DIY/hobby world and I'm a programmer by

trade.  I understand that Autodesk needs to make money from EAGLE and

make it fit in with the rest of their product line.  On one hand, I hope

that EAGLE grows into the full-fledged product that it might be.  On the

other, I am now in a period of mourning because the old EAGLE and the

community that surrounded it has been fractured and is probably gone

forever.

 

Yes, EAGLE itself is still as functional as it has ever been.  Yes, the

subscription pricing is probably reasonable.  But for me, and I think for

others, buying a copy of EAGLE (even though it's effectively only a

license to use the software) gave us a sense of ownership, of buy-in to a

pretty cool club.  Autodesk is too big to ever be that.  (Not their

fault.)  That old club has been disbanded.  EAGLE is now just another

tool from a big corporation.  Some day Jorge and Ed won't be the main

support team any more and the transition will be complete.

 

Yes, it's mainly emotions, but the people I used to share tips, tricks,

scripts, and designs with are all angry and looking to switch to other

products.  Like seeing an ex on the street, every time I start EAGLE, it

reminds me of the way things used to be and that things are different

now.

 

This too shall pass...

Hi Doug,

Yes I agree with you, the worst thing for me is what this licensing change

has done to the community. There is far less general chatter on these

forums, I rarely see posts from some of the previous long time users

anymore and I do find this very sad. We'll just have to see how things turn

out I guess, I'm hoping once the dust settles some of the original long

time members of these forums will start to visit again.... I hope so, their

experience is valuable and their help was always appreciated....

I'm hoping Jorge, Ed and Richard (haven't seen him on here for a while!)

will be around for the foreseeable future so it's not all change. I suspect

any new tech support people will be on the Autodesk official forums rather

than here though.

Best Regards,

Rachael

--

EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

Hi Rachael,

sorry, but hoping (also hopping and dancing) and praying we can do it in the church.

In business we have concrete facts.

The fact is that, if Autodesk has a disaster in its territory, for example earthquake or internal political problems in the company,

millions of users can also close their company or minimum their software.
Then we all have the huge problem of fixing the billions of damage, with all sorts of court actions.
If we both have a local problem, others are not affected.
If other clients have their problems then we are both not affected by these local problems.

This is the next big problem with such a kind of licensing policy.
These are facts, not belief or hope.
The license is broken!

If the employee is terminated by the support, or is no longer available to us, what is the matter with a licensing policy for us?

What do employees have with licenses? Are the licenses nailed on their trousers or shirts?

These people are not Autodesk, though?
How many servers does Autodesk have on the planet?

We have been waiting four years for a serious and well-functioning software update.
I have not V7 pro, but only V6.xx. pro, because the V7 is a scrap.
So I wanted to skip V7 and I've always told Cadsoft, synonymous I have written this in the German and English forums.
Now with Autodesk, the promised number 8 is here, but with the same weak uptrend.
And come all the time with hopes and prayers .. I can do that in the church, not in the business market.

You must be able to continue working if Autodesk does not update the software.
Otherwise hell is going on, and all this on the whole planet.

Just because Autodesk has a subscription philosophy ... well, this is a "hard tobacco" ...
Should productivity remain stuck on a global scale?

Best Regards,

Gerald

---

Hi Rachael,

i don't see problems with that.

rachaelp wrote:

Gerald Schwarz wrote:

! Most important: the license keeps in the last state of the paid category, and for the standard dimension a DIN A4 format with 16 layers .

With your suggestion somebody could pay $65 for a one month Premium subscription and then cancel and they would be able to use that Premium version forever. That's not financially viable for Autodesk (or any other company) to do a tool like this with that licensing model.

 

Taking this further, your suggestion of DIN A4 format and 16 layer for $10/month would pretty much wipe out all sales on Premium as those restrictions would probably cover the majority of users design requirements so they wouldn't need the Premium level. I'd love this amount in Standard but I think this is exceedingly unlikely!

If he don't like more updates, well .... You can not press the customers with a "knife".

But this license policy makes this.

Well, the DIN A4 is more flexible to use.
E. g.: Mostly I work on Eurocards 160x100 mm (3U) or double Eurocards 160x233,3mm (6U).
Then a full backplane I can not create because it is bigger than A4. Yes, I will pay for a premium version.
I will pay it as long as the project lasts, or even longer.
But not if I never use it.
Practically always I only work with up to double Euro cards. So why do I have to pay what I do not need forever?
Creating a backplane is a rare project.

Autodesk says "flexible" --- is this flexible what we just got? absolut no.

Best Regards,

Gerald

---

So why do I have to pay what I do not need forever?

Isn't this what the new license policy allowes you to do?

Jan Cumps wrote:

 

So why do I have to pay what I do not need forever?

Isn't this what the new license policy allowes you to do?

Yes it is! When you don't need Premium, you drop down to Standard. If you are between projects and don't need to update boards for a few months because you are busy doing other things then you cancel your subscription, but you can still view, print, export your designs from the Freeware license. If you need to make an edit you pay up again.... If you take somebody on for a short term, say a few months so need an extra license just for that period, that's easy and you cancel it after they're done so you don't end up with another license you don't need. It all seems very flexible to me....

Having said that, I do think they should add a level between Standard and Premium. Maybe the DIN A4 size Gerald is referring to would be a good size to go for, although maybe not 16 layers. Actually, honestly how many times does 16 layers actually get used? I've done some seriously complex boards and not gone past 10 layers. The only board I have seen with more layers was a 20-layer backplane board in an Aerospace application....

Hi,

Please do not tear from the context.

Gerald

---

On 22.02.2017 08:45, Rachael wrote:

Hi Doug,

 

Yes I agree with you, the worst thing for me is what this licensing change

has done to the community. There is far less general chatter on these

forums, I rarely see posts from some of the previous long time users

anymore and I do find this very sad. We'll just have to see how things turn

out I guess, I'm hoping once the dust settles some of the original long

time members of these forums will start to visit again.... I hope so, their

experience is valuable and their help was always appreciated....

I'm hoping Jorge, Ed and Richard (haven't seen him on here for a while!)

will be around for the foreseeable future so it's not all change. I suspect

any new tech support people will be on the Autodesk official forums rather

than here though.

 

Best Regards,

 

Rachael

Since I'm probably one of the long time users, and at least periodically

visiting nearly every day, here is my status:

(I find it very difficult to sort all my thoughts about this issue, so

excuse me if it's a bit messy or repeating.)

I am still reading the forums almost every day. The autodesk

forum has a larger threshold to visit (nntp forums show in my already

open email client), and as long as this forum is on nntp, I will keep

reading. Opening a browser creates too much distubances being met with

whatever banners there will be on whatever startpage you got.

Posting new suggestions or answering questions has become less relevant,

as I have not yet decided or found it worthwile to even evaluate v8. If

there was no hassle or unknowns with creating an autodesk account or

whatever surprises there will be, I probably would have jumped right

onto it with exitement (hey, for all I know I already got an autodesk

account, and I would have to find out what it was). I feel I kinda lost

the mutual relationship with Eagle and I don't know how to act. I have

had extremely good contact deep inside the experienced cadsoft

development team through these channels. Pre 8, I have seen

issues on 7.7 that I would like to suggest improvement for, but I am too

confused to bother. Previously I have been suggesting improvement and

posting bugs, and sometimes helped others, and my issues have mostly

been taken care of in the next revision. I guess this would have

continued with autodesk, if I just found a reason to jump in and opened

the money flow.

Regarding moving to v8.

Now that I know I can postpone any expenses until I really need that

offered new functionality, I can basically wait until they are all

mature and really gives value for the money. At the same time, being as

experienced as I am, I feel I should contribute to suggest the

priorities and directions the new versions take. But I can not give

relevant feedback until I play the game (and pay to play). Compared to

the old days, testing new versions have become a threshold that I am

reluctant to step into. The new licensing system is a bit scary

territory with a lot of unknowns. Maybe it's just the way my old brain

works.

Currently I am about to finnish another complex 16 layer design on v7.7

wich I have been working on for quite a few months (the workload was

very unknown when I started). After this is done, there may be a few

revisions to clean stuff up, then silence for an unknown period, and

maybe smaller periods where the full version is needed again. The new

exiting v8 features came a little late, but I would love to have full

modular designs when I started. I have quite a few re-use candidates on

this board. Going forward, there is no way for me to plan when or how

long I need a license, I have to do guesstimates. If there are delays,

the cost impact is unknown. This may probably be avoided if we calculate

to "throw money at autodesk" to practically get a permanent license, and

if I did continuous pcb development, that would probably be an ok

solution, but I don't do this continuosly. I will move into FPGA

development to get this product running. The best solution would be no

doubt to relax all these unknowns, pay a predictable sum for a permanent

8.x and not worry while I do my real work. At the same time, I could

have posted suggestions and bugs to the nntp forums, while helping out a

couple of noobs while I am at it.

All this said, I guess there must be an economical reason for Cadsoft

selling Eagle. I hope it wasn't just for a quick profit for the owners,

but rather because of difficult times ahead. Having said that, I think

cadsoft could have raised the price if they had the manpower to add

functionality.

Am 22.02.2017 um 12:05 schrieb rachaelp:

Jan Cumps wrote:

 

So why do I have to pay what I do not need forever?

Isn't this what the new license policy allowes you to do?

Yes it is! When you don't need Premium, you drop down to Standard.

Indeed! And when I need the premium again, but my financial situation

changed and disallows my to subscribe again, I can't use the software I

already paid maybe thousands of dollars already for to start a new

project. What a super exiting new feature, so cool!

Rene

Am 22.02.2017 um 12:05 schrieb rachaelp:

Jan Cumps wrote:

 

So why do I have to pay what I do not need forever?

Isn't this what the new license policy allowes you to do?

Yes it is! When you don't need Premium, you drop down to Standard.

Indeed! And when I need the premium again, but my financial situation

changed and disallows my to subscribe again, I can't use the software I

already paid maybe thousands of dollars already for to start a new

project. What a super exiting new feature, so cool!

Rene

CadSoft Guest wrote:

 

Am 22.02.2017 um 12:05 schrieb rachaelp:

Jan Cumps wrote:

 

So why do I have to pay what I do not need forever?

Isn't this what the new license policy allowes you to do?

Yes it is! When you don't need Premium, you drop down to Standard.

 

Indeed! And when I need the premium again, but my financial situation

changed and disallows my to subscribe again, I can't use the software I

already paid maybe thousands of dollars already for to start a new

project. What a super exiting new feature, so cool!

 

Rene

 

 

 

Hi Rene,

Yes I take your point. But for me, the cost of the premium license is relatively insignificant when compared to other costs involved in designing electronics. Even on a relatively small project the cost of prototyping a design will be the dominant cost in the early stages even before you consider things like certifications and production transition costs. If the cost of the Premium subscription was not financially viable I think that would be the least of my worries. I appreciate that everybody is different and have different costs but I would just factor in an amount for keeping EAGLE on active subscription into my budgeting and then either buy annual subscriptions or put the money to one side to cover the cost of the licensing. At the end of the financial year you'd then either be on budget or you'd have a surplus which you could put towards something else you'd like. I'm looking at this from a business perspective. I'd likely have upgraded every 18 months to 2 years when a new version came out with the previous licensing so on balance the new change isn't costing me any more. Personal users will likely have a different view and I do feel for the previous Maker license owners who have no path to an equivalent v8 license.

Best Regards,

Rachael