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EAGLE User Chat (English) Eagle v8 licensing...
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  • eagle
  • license
  • freeware
  • 8.0
Related

Eagle v8 licensing...

technolomaniac
technolomaniac over 8 years ago

Hi All --

 

Moving this to a separate thread so it doesn't get lost in the ether.  Here's my two cents on licensing and I'd love your feedback:

 

Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription and the EAGLE paid license will require that you install the SW and then generate an account to retrieve your license entitlement.  Once you have this, you are good to go and the SW will run as expected.  If you lose your network connection, the SW has a 14-day heartbeat that will enable you to work offline for 14 days.  I know that some folks would prefer to never have to connect, but this is required to support a monthly subscription model that can be selectively enabled and disabled when you use the SW (so you only pay when you use it).  The total cost of ownership for those folks using it less than a few weeks a year will thus be substantially lower and still enables you to access the full software for less money.  <Insert revolt here>  image

 

WRT to "what happens if autodesk decides to one day just shut off the license server?" ...ok, sure, that's possible, but so is a reality TV star becoming President of the..cough...nevermind, bad example.

 

Point is, that's a pretty remote possibility (think: time travel and alien invasions) and it wouldn't benefit us *at all* to upset the users we just spent real money hoping to bring into autodesk and earn their business.  As the guy with both development and P&L for the product, I can tell you that it's counterintuitive and wouldn't benefit us at all.  We know this.  We make SW used by governments, movie studios, game developers, MEs, Civil Engineers, machinists, etc. and you can bet that shutting down a license server is not to our benefit in any of these categories.  To demonstrate this behavior in one category, without a path for user SW and data, calls into question ALL of our tools' viability under this model.  Not helpful.

 

Now...a question was raised about "but what if I drop my subscription and I want my data".  Awesome, the data is yours and lives on your machine.  And for SW that stores data in the cloud (we have some of these) we always provide a path to your data.  If this again fails with one product, it puts all of the others up for discussion.  Again, not helpful.  (Read:  strategy = doomed).

 

"So what about needing an entitlement for the freeware to open the data I created in another version (a *paid* version) and reading it?  What if I want access and I dont want the 14-day time out?"

 

So here's the deal...We can do better here.  So we will.  Here's my commitment to the group here for freeware that ensures you always have a license that you can fall back on without need of internet connection *except when you first install it* (which after all, you would have had to get it in the first place):  in version 8.1 or 8.0.1 or whathaveyou (let's call it 'a future release'), if you install the SW and authenticate once, we'll remove the timer req.  So what I'm saying another way is, the freeware will require you to login the first time to get your license, but if you log out beyond that, you're good.  You got your entitlement and you can use it freely without connection.

 

Caveat:  to install an update, you will need to login.  The update server (which issues the new version...e.g. 8.1 or 8.2. or 8.0.1, etc.) requires that you login and get the update, but beyond that, logout.  Thus if you want to go off-grid in a mountain cabin somewhere, get your license at Starbucks (blagh! I understand they have 'free' wifi, but no frappucinos!  ...that stuff is bad for you) then get your license and go on your merry way up to the snow drenched peaks.  When you hear from the other mountaineers or your local yodeler that a new version of EAGLE is available...download, login, get your license, get your 'decaf double-pump vanilla non-fat latte macchiato' and head back up the slopes.

 

Point being, we can do the freeware better.  So we will.

 

Hope this is clear.  Let us know if you have questions!

 

Best regards,

 

Matt Berggren

Director - Autodesk

@technolomaniac

hackaday.io/matt

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Top Replies

  • COMPACT
    COMPACT over 8 years ago in reply to autodeskguest +4
    Not to worry, it's back to the Drawing board for me.
  • shabaz
    shabaz over 8 years ago +3
    Hi Matt, When will the EAGLE Maker version (or another solution for hobbiests) be v8-ready? I see the subscription for 'EAGLE Standard' and 'EAGLE Premium' are now available on the website, but not EAGLE…
  • albertovignati
    albertovignati over 8 years ago in reply to techsupport +3
    Il 21/02/2017 22:54, Ed Robledo ha scritto: The customers are the sole driving force to the improvements to EAGLE. Some of these 'wants' take time to be done right, that's the reason they were not done…
Parents
  • Joop14
    Joop14 over 8 years ago

    http://www.altium.com/eagle-switch/altium-designer/

     

    It was just a matter of time...

     

    --

    EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

     

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  • rachaelp
    rachaelp over 8 years ago in reply to Joop14

    Joop14 wrote:

     

    http://www.altium.com/eagle-switch/altium-designer/

     

    It was just a matter of time...

     

    --

    EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

     

     

    I have to think that not many EAGLE users would be in a position to take up that offer. Even with the 40% off its going to be over $5000 and that only comes with one year of support and updates. After the first year you'd need to pay another $1500/year for a maintenance contract for support and updates. If you don't keep up on maintenance payments you'd likely be stung for back payments if you ever did need to update so realistically, most professional users are going to want to take that option rather than risk getting stuck with a problem and having to find a lot of money to get back onto maintenance in a hurry.

     

    The people who will go for this would be those who were considering it anyway because they regularly do high end boards and the additional features of Altium would be a benefit but the full price was too much for them to swallow. For the majority of smaller companies the cost of Altium and the ongoing support cost is still likely too much. Yes Altium has some really nice features but EAGLE's really easy to use and can do moderately complex boards quickly and easy enough such that the step up to Altium isn't justified by the cost. If EAGLE adds better routing features then this need even for high end boards may be reduced.

     

    So for the $500/year for an EAGLE Premium subscription, I could buy this for at least 10 years for the equivalent of the promotional price of Altium and for that I get 10 years of support. If I factor in the cost of maintenance I could have 4 EAGLE seats for the same price as 1 Altium seat in that 10 year period. Now, I know there is an issue with no perpetual license but in one of Matt Berggrens posts he stated that they would give an equivalent v7 license to fall back on with v8 subscriptions and a promise to ensure that a design could always be saved in a completely v7 compliant format so we then have a way to use EAGLE perpetually (See here: https://www.element14.com/community/thread/58485/l/eagle-license-recommendat-ion)

     

    Best Regards,

     

    Rachael

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 8 years ago in reply to rachaelp

    Am 19.02.2017 um 16:56 schrieb rachaelp:

    ... but in one of Matt Berggrens posts he stated that they would

    give an equivalent v7 license to fall back on with v8 subscriptions

    and a promise to ensure that a design could always be saved in a

    completely v7 compliant format so we then have a way to use EAGLE

    perpetually

     

    A promise? Worth nothing.

     

    Rene

     

     

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  • Joop14
    Joop14 over 8 years ago in reply to rachaelp

    rachaelp wrote on Sun, 19 February 2017 16:56

    ... but in one of Matt Berggrens posts he stated that they would give

    an equivalent v7 license to fall back on with v8 subscriptions and a

    promise to ensure that a design could always be saved in a completely v7

    compliant format...

     

     

    Matt Berggrens also wrote that Eagle should not go subscription...

     

    technolomaniac wrote on Thu, 7 July 2016 02:01

    @Dave, it's not going subscription. So there. image At this stage, that

    isn't anywhere on my roadmap.

    Thought about it.  Decided against it.  Can I say that we will never in

    the life of any product

    do that?  No, of course not.

     

     

    http://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/autodesk-buys-eagle/msg977529/#msg977529

     

     

    --

    EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

     

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  • Joop14
    Joop14 over 8 years ago in reply to rachaelp

    rachaelp wrote on Sun, 19 February 2017 16:56

    ... but in one of Matt Berggrens posts he stated that they would give

    an equivalent v7 license to fall back on with v8 subscriptions and a

    promise to ensure that a design could always be saved in a completely v7

    compliant format...

     

     

    Matt Berggrens also wrote that Eagle should not go subscription...

     

    technolomaniac wrote on Thu, 7 July 2016 02:01

    @Dave, it's not going subscription. So there. image At this stage, that

    isn't anywhere on my roadmap.

    Thought about it.  Decided against it.  Can I say that we will never in

    the life of any product

    do that?  No, of course not.

     

     

    http://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/autodesk-buys-eagle/msg977529/#msg977529

     

     

    --

    EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

     

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  • drkirkby
    drkirkby over 8 years ago in reply to rachaelp

    rachaelp wrote:


     

    I have to think that not many EAGLE users would be in a position to take up that offer. Even with the 40% off its going to be over $5000 and that only comes with one year of support and updates.

     

    Best Regards,

     

    Rachael

    Since the special price is only for Eagle users, I wonder how Altrium are going to verify if someone has a valid Eagle license?

     

    Eagle users moving to KiCad seems a much more likely move, as Eagle and Altrium are aimed at different markets.

     

    My accountant suggested some time ago that I used KashFlow

    https://www.kashflow.com/

    for my company accounts. KashFlow is online based, so you only have access when their servers are working, and whilst they support the product. You don't install any software on the PC.

    Basically, you can are stuffed if KashFlow goes belly up. I would not use software like that. I would not mind paying a monthly fee for access to a game, but PCB software or accounts software are definitely not something I would consider renting.

     

    My accountant also suggested another package (I forget which), which just runs on a PC. In the end we agreed to use GnuCash

     

    https://www.gnucash.org/

     

    which is free and open-source.

     

    Dave

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  • drkirkby
    drkirkby over 8 years ago in reply to rachaelp

    rachaelp wrote:


     

    I have to think that not many EAGLE users would be in a position to take up that offer. Even with the 40% off its going to be over $5000 and that only comes with one year of support and updates.

     

    Best Regards,

     

    Rachael

    Since the special price is only for Eagle users, I wonder how Altrium are going to verify if someone has a valid Eagle license?

     

    Eagle users moving to KiCad seems a much more likely move, as Eagle and Altrium are aimed at different markets.

     

    My accountant suggested some time ago that I used KashFlow

    https://www.kashflow.com/

    for my company accounts. KashFlow is online based, so you only have access when their servers are working, and whilst they support the product. You don't install any software on the PC.

    Basically, you can are stuffed if KashFlow goes belly up. I would not use software like that. I would not mind paying a monthly fee for access to a game, but PCB software or accounts software are definitely not something I would consider renting.

     

    My accountant also suggested another package (I forget which), which just runs on a PC. In the end we agreed to use GnuCash

     

    https://www.gnucash.org/

     

    which is free and open-source.

     

    Dave

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  • rachaelp
    rachaelp over 8 years ago in reply to drkirkby

    Hi David,

     

    David Kirkby wrote:

     

    Since the special price is only for Eagle users, I wonder how Altrium are going to verify if someone has a valid Eagle license?

     

    Eagle users moving to KiCad seems a much more likely move, as Eagle and Altrium are aimed at different markets.

     

    That's a good question. Maybe you'd need to provide proof of purchase? I suspect only a few of the professional users doing the most high end boards and pushing the limits of EAGLE would take up this offer. Certainly for most, especially the hobbiest / maker people who aren't using EAGLE commercially, going to KiCAD is the likely path and not Altium Designer. I did see that Altium have also just published a discount on Circuit Studio for existing EAGLE customers too....

     

    Personally I am sticking with EAGLE. I have a v7 license to fall back on anyway but I'm not worrying about the longevity of EAGLE under Autodesk at this point and at the Premium annual subscription level, assuming I would have updated every couple of years under the old system it isn't going to cost me any more really. I can see at the low end, losing the much cheaper non-commercial Maker license does make EAGLE a lot more expensive for people who previously had this license. Hopefully this is something that Autodesk will look at and address. I do also think they would stop some more of the bleeding of existing users if there was a level between Standard and Premium as the restrictions on Standard are still quite restrictive in terms of board area and the cost jump between the two is quite large.

     

    David Kirkby wrote:

     

    My accountant suggested some time ago that I used KashFlow https://www.kashflow.com/ for my company accounts. KashFlow is online based, so you only have access when their servers are working, and whilst they support the product. You don't install any software on the PC. Basically, you can are stuffed if KashFlow goes belly up. I would not use software like that. I would not mind paying a monthly fee for access to a game, but PCB software or accounts software are definitely not something I would consider renting.

    Using something completely cloud based for something as fundamentally important to your business as your company accounts is totally idiotic. I hope you suitable chastised your accountant when they suggested it....

     

    I don't see EAGLE v8 really falls into this category though as you don't store your data in the cloud and it's always readable even with a v8 freeware license it's just not editable. Combine this with being able to export to v7 (if the file format actually changes as currently they are the same) and I don't see there being a huge risk of losing access to my data.

     

    Best Regards,

     

    Rachael

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  • Joop14
    Joop14 over 8 years ago in reply to rachaelp

    rachaelp wrote on Mon, 20 February 2017 09:01

    I don't see EAGLE v8 really falls into this category though as you

    don't store your data in the cloud and it's always readable even with a

    v8 freeware license it's just not editable. Combine this with being able

    to export to v7 (if the file format actually changes as currently they

    are the same) and I don't see there being a huge risk of losing access to

    my data.

     

     

    Makes no difference. Your locally stored data is completely useless (from a

    business point of view)

    when you can't edit or modify an 8 layer board.

     

     

     

    --

    EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

     

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  • rachaelp
    rachaelp over 8 years ago in reply to Joop14

    Joop_ wrote on Mon, 20 February 2017 11:50

    rachaelp wrote on Mon, 20 February 2017 09:01

    I don't see EAGLE v8 really falls into this category though as you

    don't store your data in the cloud and it's always readable even with a

    v8 freeware license it's just not editable. Combine this with being

    able to export to v7 (if the file format actually changes as currently

    they are the same) and I don't see there being a huge risk of losing

    access to my data.

     

    Makes no difference. Your locally stored data is completely useless

    (from a business point of view) when you can't edit or modify an 8 layer

    board.

     

     

    But you will be able to, in a perpetual licensed v7 version. Currently v8

    files open fine in v7 and they're going to implement an exporter to v7 so

    if this ceases to be the case the freeware version will be able to open it

    and allow export to v7. Assuming (yep I can see the million replies to this

    already) they give the v7 license entitlement for v8 subscriptions as

    indicated by Matt in another post then this shouldn't cause any issues.

    --

    EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

     

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 8 years ago in reply to rachaelp

    On 20.02.2017 13:00, Rachael wrote:

    ...

    Currently v8

    files open fine in v7 and they're going to implement an exporter to v7 so

    if this ceases to be the case the freeware version will be able to open it

    and allow export to v7.

     

    This will break as soon as they implement any new objects or properties

    in a later version. Anything that V7 doesn't know of, it can't handle.

     

    Klaus

     

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  • rachaelp
    rachaelp over 8 years ago in reply to autodeskguest

    Klaus Schmidinger wrote on Mon, 20 February 2017 12:40

    On 20.02.2017 13:00, Rachael wrote:

    ...

    Currently v8

    files open fine in v7 and they're going to implement an exporter

    to v7 so

    if this ceases to be the case the freeware version will be able to

    open it

    and allow export to v7.

     

    This will break as soon as they implement any new objects or

    properties

    in a later version. Anything that V7 doesn't know of, it can't handle.

     

    Klaus

     

     

    Yes agreed it would likely break v7 if trying to open a v8 file with new

    objects, but this is mitigated by the export to v7 option they have said

    they will provide.

     

    Maybe instead they could release a v7.8 with an enhanced import feature

    which could download v8 file personalities so that it can always open up a

    v8 file directly rather than relying on an export?

     

    I don't know, I'm not giving up on EAGLE as for me the new issues with

    licensing can be worked around such that the potential implications aren't

    more severe than having to throw away years of experience, libraries,

    utilities etc. Others clearly have a differing view but I think switching

    to something else is more risk than any perceived future risk with the

    licensing issue, it is for me at least for now.

     

    Best Regards,

     

    Rachael

     

     

     

     

    --

    EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

     

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 8 years ago in reply to rachaelp

    On 20.02.2017 13:54, Rachael wrote:

    ...

    Yes agreed it would likely break v7 if trying to open a v8 file with new

    objects, but this is mitigated by the export to v7 option they have said

    they will provide.

     

    The XML file structure of V7 represents everything that the V7 executable

    can handle. Once a later version introduces new stuff in the XML data,

    there is no way V7 could possibly understand and handle that - not even if

    they provide an "export to V7 option". There would always be something

    missing or misinterpreted. Unless, of course, there's some sort of wizardry

    involved... ;-).

     

    Klaus

     

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  • rachaelp
    rachaelp over 8 years ago in reply to autodeskguest

    Klaus Schmidinger wrote on Mon, 20 February 2017 14:49

    On 20.02.2017 13:54, Rachael wrote:

    ...

    Yes agreed it would likely break v7 if trying to open a v8 file

    with new

    objects, but this is mitigated by the export to v7 option they

    have said

    they will provide.

     

    The XML file structure of V7 represents everything that the V7

    executable

    can handle. Once a later version introduces new stuff in the XML data,

    there is no way V7 could possibly understand and handle that - not even

    if

    they provide an "export to V7 option". There would always be something

    missing or misinterpreted. Unless, of course, there's some sort of

    wizardry

    involved... ;).

     

    Klaus

     

     

    Clearly any export to v7 would have to omit or recreate in a compatible way

    anything that v7 wouldn't natively understand.... image

     

    I think the idea being that v7 contains all the features necessary to

    accurately render a board. Any new objects in the v8 file would be likely

    related to the new features required for designing the PCB but not for

    rendering it in a form which can then be subsequently edited by v7.

     

    Best Regards,

     

    Rachael

     

     

     

    --

    EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

     

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  • technolomaniac
    technolomaniac over 8 years ago in reply to rachaelp

    @Klaus, et. Al --

     

    You're correct, we need to handle any new objects in the export process which, as you'd expect in any CAD system, will mean some loss in fidelity.  I can recall vividly supporting the old PDIF format from Master Designer & Tango (now you get a sense for how old I am...dang!) when we built and released later versions of Accel / PCAD (I see eagle still has a PDIF import ULP which made me smile a bit!).  We had both import and export.  Same was true after Protel acquired us and we had to support both legacy PCAD and legacy Protel in the Altium-era (ASCII altium is still a legacy format, Protel v6 from what I recall). 

     

    Moving forward, a better parser would be smart enough to omit those elements that it doesn't understand in the XML so you dont need to export the data.  This is a pretty high priority item because forward <> backward compatibility will give users confidence that they aren't "trapped" in a specific version.  The move to XML was a wise one as it gives us a lot more flexibility with this process than using a stream writer class, encoding things in bitfields.  This process is underway but it will take some time to implement.  It'll happen this year though I suppose. 

     

    Going back to version 7 is as far back as we want to go because as hierarchy becomes more "complete" we dont want to have to flatten everything out and it could get far more risky.  The trick with any of this is then also maintaining syncing.  So whatever we do to one editor has to be considered in how we deal with the other.  This is par for the course but something to keep our eye(s) on. 

     

    Future releases, we'll update the parser so if some new item is introduced, it just opens the file and omits that item or throws a warning and reverts to a legacy item.  For example, if we added a new "board" object built from complex polys instead of lines and arcs, we need to decide what to do if you want to open this in an older version.  That's one area where we need to be careful and deliberate in our implementation. 

     

    Hope this is clear.  We are thinking about this for sure.  Any feedback (or any insights from the Cadsoft legend!) would be hugely valuable!

     

    Best regards,

     

    Matt - Autodesk.

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  • rbtx99
    rbtx99 over 8 years ago in reply to rachaelp

    A promise from Autodesk to support future export compatibility with v7 worth as much as their promise to keep the perpetual license.

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  • geralds
    geralds over 8 years ago in reply to technolomaniac

    Matt Berggren wrote:

     

    @Klaus, et. Al --

     

    You're correct, we need to handle any new objects in the export process which, as you'd expect in any CAD system, will mean some loss in fidelity. I can recall vividly supporting the old PDIF format from Master Designer & Tango (now you get a sense for how old I am...dang!) when we built and released later versions of Accel / PCAD (I see eagle still has a PDIF import ULP which made me smile a bit!). We had both import and export. Same was true after Protel acquired us and we had to support both legacy PCAD and legacy Protel in the Altium-era (ASCII altium is still a legacy format, Protel v6 from what I recall).

     

     

    Hi Matt,

     

    Congratulations! Now.... we make a small step forward.

     

    At that time, pre Altium, with PCAD 4.5 (1985); 5.0 (1986,..,87); .... 8..8.5 ( first program for Windows; 1988...2000; after that i used PCAD 2001, 2002) that was  the theater that the files in binary wasn't compatible to each versions. (now you can sense how old i am... image )

    Only with the interface export/import in ASCII format (every time we jumped across in the shell) was able to convert to the newer software version.

     

    But, that was the point, all wires was fixed as wire, absolut stabil.

    They didn't merged with lines (drawing lines). This was it what i loved against some other tools, e.g. from cadence.
    The second software that have a stabil wire connection is Eagle and this have its famous price: cheap and easy to use.

     

    But now the quality was lost.

    The quality can be bring back if the price categories also the license policy be actualized to the today's standards.

     

    What i suggest is:
    1) Free version 160cm² (Eurocard) with two layers.
    2) Standard version DIN A4 format, because most printer (e.g. laser printer) can print out the layouts in this format, with all layers (16).
    3) Premium format as we have, 16m² 16 layers, or if you like, 32 layers or such as Altium Designer.
    4) The license quality does NOT falling back to the free version, it must staying at the last state of its paid category.

     

    Then in the future, what you want to do with your promise.

    With this I'm sure, absolutely, you can hold all your customers.

     

    ->

    Ähm,,,, "wire" "lines" -- in an forum I've read the wires will be lines, also in ULP.

    hm.... i think that would be not so good.
    This problem was often - the user drawn lines but he wanted wires.
    And if the colors are the same then they have problems with interpreting, what is connected wire or what is a graphical line.
    Most users are eyes orientated, so they drawing what they can see, not what they can program.
    I suggest, keep it by strict separating.

     

    Best Regards,

    Gerald

    ---

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