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Embedded and Microcontrollers
Embedded Forum Obsolescence: The problem with the problem
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Related

Obsolescence: The problem with the problem

Catwell
Catwell over 15 years ago

I held a job at a company whose product line was designed in the late 1970s. When I came onboard there, they repeatedly told me that all the engineering, up and to that point, was just in redesigning and maintaining the legacy boards. So, for several months, that is exactly what I did for them. I spent most of my time talking to chip brokers trying to find a cache of various chips that hadn't been made in 20 years. I would spend hours searching the internet for obscure and lesser know chip houses to find parts. Sometimes I would score a huge batch of ICs, and other times I was just left feeling angry talking to shifty chip houses. I'm sure a lot of people can relate to this one. From what I understand, it's often 20% of any job.
 
So, since it's such a big part of engineering, what is the best practice in searching for obsolete parts? Are there definitive places to go, services to use, people to know?
 
Side story; I remember I found 1000, important, ICs for that company, roughly a 6 month supply. They would not buy them, why? Because they didn't want to store them. The recent "just in time inventory" strategy superseded my department. I even offered to store them all in my garage! So, they let them go. A few months later they were desperate, went back to buy them, and they were gone. The entire company went into a spiraling frenzy. They ended up paying almost the price of the final product for a single IC.
 
For the record, I ended up taking the product away from the IC and into the age of micro-controllers. I designed the software to be usable on several different uCs, longevity of the product would never be an issue again. Ultimately, a thankless gesture on my part. They downsized the entire department after I was done with the redesign. But that's just the curse of being a hapless salaryman.
 
Cabe
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  • firatkocak
    firatkocak over 15 years ago in reply to enrico.migchels +1
    One more analogy from me. You have just passed through the desert. And someone else holds a cup of water in his hand. What would you do ? Would you ask so that "Sorry, are you a reliable person to give…
  • enrico.migchels
    0 enrico.migchels over 15 years ago

    Hi Cabe,

     

    Obsolete components... hmmm, a nasty subject. In our line of business this will always be a 'part of the job' because when the economy is up, there is demand for new products and there are shortages everywhere. I always observe the purchaser (or buyer); as the guy is nervous,  the market is in an uplift :-)

    I try to circumvent the problem by introducing a ''second source'' partslist from the start of the project. You won't believe how the component guys are copying each other. For passive component you will find a second source for sure. If you build the second source list from the start of the project, the manufacturing site won't have to bother you. They just buy whatever is on the list. If you use strategic components you have to buy buffer stock....

     

    Best regards, Enrico Migchels

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  • GardenState
    0 GardenState over 15 years ago

    Hi Cabe.

     

    This is a very big problem in the military. Fighter jets are designed for 20-30 years of service life; the electronic components they contain frequently are not available for that long. Fortunately, there are companies that specialize in providing a reliable source of product that has been discontinued by the original manufacturer. Two such companies come to mind: Rochester Electroncs of Newburyport MA and Lansdale Semiconductor of Tempe AZ

     

    GardenState

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  • Former Member
    0 Former Member over 15 years ago in reply to GardenState

    There are indeed a lot of companies that source or even remake obsolete parts.

     

    Just entering "obsolete components" into google will give you a lot of results.

     

     

    Elias

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  • Former Member
    0 Former Member over 15 years ago

    Indeed finding reliable obsolete components has become a huge problem in recent years. There are a lot of businesses promoting their services on this subject, but the reliability of their sources and how to check they are offering reliable products is increasingly difficult.

    We have been in the industry of obsolete components for the Australian / New Zealand market ever since our inception in 1993. In those days it was easy : America & Europe = good & reliable components, China = bad components. but now things are much more complex, we are having European , Canadian, American and other companies offering bad components.

    And with the advent of various websites offering easy searching of components availability, many "new comers" fall into the trap of purchasing components from overseas, as freight costs have become so competitive.

     

    We have learnt the hard way, back in the last "shortages" in 2000, by getting components that look 100% genuine, but fail once loaded onto a board. The lesson learnt? Trust your long standing suppliers and if the price is to good to be true, it mostly is!

    For the past 5 years we have strictly followed our rule of only trusting our reputable and long standing suppliers, regardless of price. And if the customer insists the parts are available much cheaper from an unknown company to us, we inform them of the risks and all the horror stories we have heard from customers going down that path. Ask them if it was worth saving money by buying cheap components from someone overseas they have never heard of...? Also, we see how the scammers have become smarter, offering reliable products during the first transactions, to build the trust, or offering pictures of parts as proof. Getting picture of parts is a child's play with the all powerful internet... Reliable obsolete components is a huge problem and only seems to become even more problematic as it becomes easier to buy from anywhere in the world, with a couple of emails and a mouse click.

     

    What price are you happy to pay for confidence & piece of mind? I think something that gets forgotten all too often in our fast paced world of today...

     

    No more horror stories! Buy from who you know & trust!!

     

    Alain Ludva - Mondo Perth

    The obsolete & long leadtime electronics sourcing specialist

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  • enrico.migchels
    0 enrico.migchels over 15 years ago in reply to Former Member

    Hi Alain,

     

    What if components are no longer available and the broker on the corner is offering a batch? It is like the mouse who is very hungry, it will enter the trap... This means that there always will be business for these unreliable people. It is a shame.

     

    Best regards, Enrico Migchels

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  • firatkocak
    0 firatkocak over 15 years ago in reply to enrico.migchels

    One more analogy from me. You have just passed through the desert. And someone else holds a cup of water in his hand. What would you do ? Would you ask so that "Sorry, are you a reliable person to give me a cup of water ?" image

     

    I think, no...

     

    Firat Kocak

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  • awinning
    0 awinning over 15 years ago

    Funnily enough I just received an offer for a free white paper on

     

    Counterfeits, Compliance and Continuity - The A&D Sustainability Paradox
    Manage through-life support and availability while controlling costs, complying with regulations and mitigating risk in the aerospace and defense supply chain

     

    Can be downloaded here if anyone is interested https://www.ess-home.com/solutions/sustainability-software.asp

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  • Former Member
    0 Former Member over 15 years ago in reply to awinning

    Dear Firat & Enrico,

     

    Your analogies are nice, but not correct.

    It is very rarely the case that only 1 company worldwide is having stock (the broker community is huge, with lots of reputable companies allowing you to use professionals to look pretty much everywhere).

    And you always have an alternative, before you go for that unknown piece of cheese or glass of water, regardless of the risks.

     

    Use your trusted broker to see if they can find reliable stock. If they cannot, be smart and use some safety measures!

    We understand a product still needs to be made / serviced / mantained, but there are options:

    - use Escrow services, allowing you to inspect & test the parts BEFORE you pay

    - use testing houses (there are many reliable and affordable ones), to inspect & test the parts BEFORE you pay

     

    Yes, it will cost a bit more. Yes, it will take a bit longer.

    But it will save your reputation & your business from grave consequences!

    Not to follow safe business practices, is foolish even in desperate times!

     

    I'm a very conservative & prudent type of guy, so please: no more risks, unless you've taken some safety measures!!

     

    Alain Ludva

    Mondo Perth

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  • Former Member
    0 Former Member over 15 years ago in reply to Former Member
    We are very proud to announce that Mondo Electronics 2000 Pty Ltd has, this week, been formally accepted into the Defence Recognised Supplier Scheme (DRSS).  The DRSS is administered by the Australian Defence Materiel Organisation.
     
    Mondo has supplied a range of electronic components, over the years, to various end-users within and subcontractors to the Australian Defence Force (ADF) and Department of Defence (DoD).  In particular, our sourcing expertise in obsolete and/or hard to find electronic components enables us to support the ADO in the critical area of obsolescence management and keeping Australia’s complex military equipment operational.
     
    To achieve DRSS recognition, Mondo has demonstrated that we meet the ADO’s very stringent standards relating to the delivery of fit-for purpose parts, on-time and on-budget. We offer the same high level of servicing to our customers outside of the defence sector.image
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