Eagle v8 licensing...

http://www.altium.com/eagle-switch/altium-designer/

It was just a matter of time...

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EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

Joop14 wrote:

 

http://www.altium.com/eagle-switch/altium-designer/

 

It was just a matter of time...

 

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I have to think that not many EAGLE users would be in a position to take up that offer. Even with the 40% off its going to be over $5000 and that only comes with one year of support and updates. After the first year you'd need to pay another $1500/year for a maintenance contract for support and updates. If you don't keep up on maintenance payments you'd likely be stung for back payments if you ever did need to update so realistically, most professional users are going to want to take that option rather than risk getting stuck with a problem and having to find a lot of money to get back onto maintenance in a hurry.

The people who will go for this would be those who were considering it anyway because they regularly do high end boards and the additional features of Altium would be a benefit but the full price was too much for them to swallow. For the majority of smaller companies the cost of Altium and the ongoing support cost is still likely too much. Yes Altium has some really nice features but EAGLE's really easy to use and can do moderately complex boards quickly and easy enough such that the step up to Altium isn't justified by the cost. If EAGLE adds better routing features then this need even for high end boards may be reduced.

So for the $500/year for an EAGLE Premium subscription, I could buy this for at least 10 years for the equivalent of the promotional price of Altium and for that I get 10 years of support. If I factor in the cost of maintenance I could have 4 EAGLE seats for the same price as 1 Altium seat in that 10 year period. Now, I know there is an issue with no perpetual license but in one of Matt Berggrens posts he stated that they would give an equivalent v7 license to fall back on with v8 subscriptions and a promise to ensure that a design could always be saved in a completely v7 compliant format so we then have a way to use EAGLE perpetually (See here: https://www.element14.com/community/thread/58485/l/eagle-license-recommendat-ion)

Best Regards,

Rachael

Brent Bolton wrote on Wed, 22 February 2017 22:13

Hi Rachael

 

Brett or Brent, no problem. Anyway, as always the devil is in the

details. While I could do as you say, a more typical usage scenario for

me is that I don't use the tool for a couple of months, then a customer

calls me up with a question or a minor change and I need the tool for

half an hour. It would be really annoying to have to go online and spend

a half hour renewing for a half hour of work, not to mention paying for a

full month. The bottom line for me is that you need to listen to your

customers. If only half the people on this forum are screaming about the

license, and I think it's more than that, then you've made that amount of

your customer base angry at you. That's never a good business strategy. I

plan to stay angry with Autodesk until they change the license, and maybe

after that if it doesn't happen promptly. I should also remind you that

designers like me don't necessarily stay in one CAD silo. I do mechanical

design as well, have used Autodesk tools, and used to have a favorable

opinion of the company. Not any more. After Cadence bought OrCAD and

screwed me over on a subsequent project, also over a license issue, I

made it company policy to never do business with Cadence. That policy

still stands. Would Autodesk like to join that party?

 

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Hi Brent,

Just a quick FYI, I don't work for Autodesk.... It seems I am getting

mistaken for an Autodesk employee a lot these days.... I am an EAGLE user

just like you. I just happen to not mind the new licensing so much....

Best Regards,

Rachael

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Brent Bolton wrote on Wed, 22 February 2017 22:13

a more typical usage scenario for me is that I don't use the tool for a

couple of months, then a customer calls me up with a question or a minor

change and I need the tool for half an hour. It would be really annoying

to have to go online and spend a half hour renewing for a half hour of

work, not to mention paying for a full month.

Also, if you just need to check something then you can open and view in the

freeware version just fine. If the changes are minor (even if they are not

that minor) you could just do them in a v7 licensed EAGLE which no doubt

you will have hanging around still.

Best Regards,

Rachael

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Yes, I see that now from your earlier posts. It might help if you wrote so as not to sound like an Autodesk employee. I'm glad that the subscription model works for you -- I conceded in an earlier post that it is certainly good for a class of users. And I also said that Autodesk could easily offer both license types, if they wanted. Apparently they don't want to so they may get to join my CAD company no-fly list. You should care about this also, even though you like the new license, as if enough of us leave Eagle and it gets a bad rep in the design community, then Autodesk may just kill it off and you're left without a good CAD solution as well.

Best,
Brent

Brent Bolton wrote:

 

Yes, I see that now from your earlier posts. It might help if you wrote so as not to sound like an Autodesk employee. I'm glad that the subscription model works for you -- I conceded in an earlier post that it is certainly good for a class of users. And I also said that Autodesk could easily offer both license types, if they wanted. Apparently they don't want to so they may get to join my CAD company no-fly list. You should care about this also, even though you like the new license, as if enough of us leave Eagle and it gets a bad rep in the design community, then Autodesk may just kill it off and you're left without a good CAD solution as well.

 

Best,
Brent

Hi Brent,

Actually if I were to choose I would much prefer the old license model, but it is not going to happen I don't think and what we have now is way better than what Farnell tried to do and at least now there is significant development resources going into improving EAGLE. I could get angry about the licensing but that wont solve anything so I am choosing to be positive about it and move forward. I can mitigate the negatives, and on balance it will cost me about the same as I will just have annual premium subscriptions which, factoring in upgrade cycles previously, works out about the same. Additionally, if I need any short term assistance and need a second license for a few months it works out a lot cheaper as I wont need to buy a complete second license Just a second subscription for a short period.

Bedt Regards,

Rachael

Rachael,

You are missing the big picture.  Many of us do not believe Eagle can survive under this new licensing model.  Over the years I have moved 4 different companies to Eagle, none of them are interested in the subscription license.  Clearly there are a few of you who can accept the new model, but the question is are there enough of you to keep Eagle alive at Autodesk.  My calculation is no.  They will miss their revenue goals and the project will be abandon.  Their promises of more improvements and backward compatibility are worth exactly as much as their promise 6 months ago that they wouldn't go subscription.

It's our responsibility as business people to evaluate the viability of our suppliers.   Subscription Eagle at Autodesk isn't viable because they won't attract the customers.  The value proposition just isn't there.  They have no defensible market between KiCad and Altium.  Non-subscription Eagle at Autodesk isn't viable because it doesn't match their integrated software as a service goals.  So Eagle is dead.  That is very painful for many of us.  It actually makes me sick in my stomach, but you have to deal with the hard reality.  There is no reason to risk your company's productivity on someone else's fantasy business model even if the community used to be enjoyable.  I think any time spent on v8 is wasted in the long run.

Sorry

On 22.02.2017 23:13, Brent Bolton wrote:

The bottom line for me is that you need to listen to your customers. If only half the people on this forum are screaming about the license, and I think it's more than that, then you've made that amount of your customer base angry at you. That's never a good business strategy. I plan to stay angry with Autodesk until they change the license, and maybe after that if it doesn't happen promptly.

Yep, exactly.

I should also remind you that designers like me don't necessarily stay in one CAD silo. I do mechanical design as well, have used Autodesk tools, and used to have a favorable opinion of the company.

The guy in charge of our Inventor Licenses at my company is also pissed

and will stay with Inventor 2014 as long as possible as Autodesk refuses

to sell perpetual licenses. Gained revenue for Autodesk = NIL

So that makes already two people being pissed

As a lot of people said, it's not about the money. I would even buy a

perpetual license if it's double the price it was before at CadSoft,

even with the EUR surcharge. To support the development. It's money in

advance for Autodesk.

But I will not let me be treaten as cash cow ad infinitum.

So no pertpetual license = money paid from my side = NIL

Markus

rachaelp wrote on Wed, 22 February 2017 23:52

Actually if I were to choose I would much prefer the old license model,

but it is not going to happen

How do you know that? Six months ago they said "It's not going

subscription".

You say you are not affiliated to Autodesk but still you sound like you

have more info than us.

If (almost) nobody takes a subscription, they or the new owner have to

revert back the license.

Farnell did it and I believe autodesk or the new owner will do it as well.

We just have to be more patient than them.

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EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

Joop_ wrote on Thu, 23 February 2017 07:42

rachaelp wrote on Wed, 22 February 2017 23:52

Actually if I were to choose I would much prefer the old license

model, but it is not going to happen

 

How do you know that? Six months ago they said "It's not going

subscription".

You say you are not affiliated to Autodesk but still you sound like you

have more info than us.

Oh for goodness sake, I know nothing more than anybody else on here! I have

just read every post here and on other forums and have seen the content and

tone of the replies from the support guys like Jorge and Ed (whom I do

trust) and they seem to be indicating that a big U turn by Autodesk is

unlikely.

Do what you like, I will do what I like, which is to NOT currently buy a

subscription for v8 until it is a) stable and b) has significant new

features like the new routing engine. I'm in no hurry, I have v7 and I can

wait and see how things pan out.

Rachael

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EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

Joop_ wrote on Thu, 23 February 2017 07:42

rachaelp wrote on Wed, 22 February 2017 23:52

Actually if I were to choose I would much prefer the old license

model, but it is not going to happen

 

How do you know that? Six months ago they said "It's not going

subscription".

You say you are not affiliated to Autodesk but still you sound like you

have more info than us.

Oh for goodness sake, I know nothing more than anybody else on here! I have

just read every post here and on other forums and have seen the content and

tone of the replies from the support guys like Jorge and Ed (whom I do

trust) and they seem to be indicating that a big U turn by Autodesk is

unlikely.

Do what you like, I will do what I like, which is to NOT currently buy a

subscription for v8 until it is a) stable and b) has significant new

features like the new routing engine. I'm in no hurry, I have v7 and I can

wait and see how things pan out.

Rachael

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EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

On 22.02.2017 18:07, Jorge Garcia wrote:

Hey Morten,

 

It's nice to hear from you glad you are still around here lurking. I

know there is a lot of unknowns and fear right now.

 

I know I've written this like a million times at this point but remember

that you can subscribe for a month at a minimum so the cost to try out

the new features isn't that bad (Full 16 layer version of EAGLE for

$65.00 for one month).

If I weigh this up against what I already have in 7.7, I cant find this

cost justifying much. I have to wait until there are alot of new

features, and I know that will take time. It is kinda sad that I won't

be in the loop to give feedback, because I know I have a lot of

knowledge and great wishes for the eagle future, at least from the

advanced user perspective. Anyway, subscribing for a single month is out

of the question for my kind of use.

The new forum from Autodesk, is very nice. Definitely a lot better than

E-14 but I know that's not saying much. When I first started using it,

kicked me out a few times but I could still post and respond so not a

big deal. I encourage you to check it out when you have a chance( 16

layer board, wow).

I have been looking at it, and it looks "ok", but not better than nntp.

There is too much space, too many images wanting your attention (ok,

just a few, but still an infinite multiplum of none), no simple overview

of all messages, too much empty space, too slow to open a message, ...

If I spent more time analyzing, I could probably find more

to whine about.

16 layers yes, I was even considering using more. In fact Eagle can do

that(!), because a lot of the layers are plain reference ground for

impedance and signal integrity. Since I got no blind or buried vias, I

could have used the same layer to generate multiple reference planes in

the CAM processor (or my own gerber export ULP).

We really value Morten and all the users like him. I figure that right

now most of our experienced users are waiting to see how this all pans

out and I respect that, in your position I would do the same thing.

I don't know where your core business is, but imo eagle is a tool for

low to middle end small-medium sized boards, and I have been challenging

its functions for the professional end, so I don't see myself as the

typical user. If it wasnt for the ULP support and my programming

knowledge, I would probably looked around for alternatives.

Ed and I are still here and we intend to be here for the foreseeable

future(in Rachel's terms).

I know you are. I hope to stay too. I'm pretty sure I will, but I can't

promise you I won't look around. Early in this acquistition process, the

pricing was the potential thing that scared me most, and my fears came

through. Afaics, only the recurrent full pricing is a real option to me,

and that seems to be a significant increase. Autodesk seems to want

another payment for all the old functionality over again (remember I

already have it), or they price the new functionality very high. The

discount for old customers doesn't make a great impact.

Let us know if there's anything  we can do for you.

I could list a few, like comfort me, tell me why I should spend this

money (or actually open the flow of money for an unknown period of time)

when I already have v7. [The "already have v7 is important here] It will

be a very expensive modular design block and soon obstacle avoidance

(wich is cool, but not that important to me).

Best Regards,

Jorge Garcia

On 22.02.2017 18:07, Jorge Garcia wrote:

Hey Morten,

 

It's nice to hear from you glad you are still around here lurking. I

know there is a lot of unknowns and fear right now.

 

I know I've written this like a million times at this point but remember

that you can subscribe for a month at a minimum so the cost to try out

the new features isn't that bad (Full 16 layer version of EAGLE for

$65.00 for one month).

If I weigh this up against what I already have in 7.7, I cant find this

cost justifying much. I have to wait until there are alot of new

features, and I know that will take time. It is kinda sad that I won't

be in the loop to give feedback, because I know I have a lot of

knowledge and great wishes for the eagle future, at least from the

advanced user perspective. Anyway, subscribing for a single month is out

of the question for my kind of use.

The new forum from Autodesk, is very nice. Definitely a lot better than

E-14 but I know that's not saying much. When I first started using it,

kicked me out a few times but I could still post and respond so not a

big deal. I encourage you to check it out when you have a chance( 16

layer board, wow).

I have been looking at it, and it looks "ok", but not better than nntp.

There is too much space, too many images wanting your attention (ok,

just a few, but still an infinite multiplum of none), no simple overview

of all messages, too much empty space, too slow to open a message, ...

If I spent more time analyzing, I could probably find more

to whine about.

16 layers yes, I was even considering using more. In fact Eagle can do

that(!), because a lot of the layers are plain reference ground for

impedance and signal integrity. Since I got no blind or buried vias, I

could have used the same layer to generate multiple reference planes in

the CAM processor (or my own gerber export ULP).

We really value Morten and all the users like him. I figure that right

now most of our experienced users are waiting to see how this all pans

out and I respect that, in your position I would do the same thing.

I don't know where your core business is, but imo eagle is a tool for

low to middle end small-medium sized boards, and I have been challenging

its functions for the professional end, so I don't see myself as the

typical user. If it wasnt for the ULP support and my programming

knowledge, I would probably looked around for alternatives.

Ed and I are still here and we intend to be here for the foreseeable

future(in Rachel's terms).

I know you are. I hope to stay too. I'm pretty sure I will, but I can't

promise you I won't look around. Early in this acquistition process, the

pricing was the potential thing that scared me most, and my fears came

through. Afaics, only the recurrent full pricing is a real option to me,

and that seems to be a significant increase. Autodesk seems to want

another payment for all the old functionality over again (remember I

already have it), or they price the new functionality very high. The

discount for old customers doesn't make a great impact.

Let us know if there's anything  we can do for you.

I could list a few, like comfort me, tell me why I should spend this

money (or actually open the flow of money for an unknown period of time)

when I already have v7. [The "already have v7 is important here] It will

be a very expensive modular design block and soon obstacle avoidance

(wich is cool, but not that important to me).

Best Regards,

Jorge Garcia

On 2/23/2017 2:53 AM, Morten Leikvoll wrote:

Let us know if there's anything  we can do for you.

 

I could list a few, like comfort me, tell me why I should spend this

money (or actually open the flow of money for an unknown period of time)

when I already have v7. [The "already have v7 is important here] It will

be a very expensive modular design block and soon obstacle avoidance

(wich is cool, but not that important to me).

Hey Morten,

The reality is that it's your money, so don't feel like you have to part

ways with it now if you are not fully convinced that it is going to be

worth it.

I see that so far the new features still aren't enough for you and

that's cool. EAGLE's pace of development has increased greatly and it's

not going to take a long time to get the features that have been

promised in.

Like I mentioned on the Autodesk Forums, it is now up to us to earn the

business of our customers by improving EAGLE and adding features that

will compel you to go subscription. That is our goal, and for whatever

it's worth, despite the licensing change, I see EAGLE finally growing

and getting the development that it has long deserved.

The next few months are going to be interesting, and since you'll be

checking in you'll be seeing it.

Hang tight and as always let me know if there's anything else I can do

for you.

Best Regards,

Jorge Garcia

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