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Should you have to pay to opt-in to a RoadTest ?

cstanton

"No"

Is probably what's already on your fingers ready to type in reply, and that's fine.

Each year I took part in "Reddit Secret Santa", where you're matched against another person, who you find information about, and send them a secret santa gift for Christmas.

Someone matches with you, and you hope that they will send you something, after all, they signed up for the Secret Santa.

A few years in a row, I was 'shafted' and wasn't sent anything, sometimes in these cases, you're matched up with a new Secret Santa and then sent something, unfortunately that didn't happen either.

This caused a bit of an uproar in Reddit, while people were happy if they got anything and knew they weren't necessarily entitled to anything, they felt that it wasn't quite in the spirit of things.

So along came the idea of becoming an 'Elf'. You paid $5 to enter the Reddit Secret Santa, and that put you against other people who had also paid $5, the idea being because you'd all invested a base amount in it, you're more inclined to make sure that the person you're matched with will get a present, and you yourself will get a present, and you're supporting Reddit at the same time. Everyone wins and you're invested in it.

This pretty much worked for Reddit, paying into something seems to 'click' with people that you want to be with others, so you're paying the 'premium' to get into that rather than anyone who can sign up and looking for a freebie without paying it forward. A bit capitalist but some people like to support things.

There are other mechanisms that they use for reputation with Secret Santa, when you successfully enter a Secret Santa you gain a token, you gain another token for sending off your 'Parcel', and you gain another token for marking your parcel as received, and you gain another token when your Secret Santee receives your Parcel. You can then 'spend' these tokens to enter another Reddit Secret Santa. Don't do these? Well, you don't get your tokens. Though even this has mechanisms where "what if you just create another account?" and "how do you get tokens if you want to redeem yourself?" - I'm sure some vetting and mechanism is involved there, too, but ultimately there's also weight to paying to opt-in with like-minded people.

Which puts the thought of "Should you have to pay to opt-in to a RoadTest" ?

We've had members over the years that receive equipment, and they run off with it and don't do a RoadTest. This harms the Community, and it harms the suppliers when they provide the hardware (especially if it's early access hardware).

How would this work? I'm not entirely sure.

Would you have to pay-in to apply to the RoadTest?

Would you only pay-in when you're chosen to write the RoadTest review (so before you receive the hardware), would it be a deposit?

Which is reimbursed when you've wrote the RoadTest Review? (I think I'd prefer the deposit idea out of any of these).

Would we only do this for RoadTest kit over a certain value?

We have no plans whatsoever at implementing anything like this, this's the first time I've brought it up to anyone (including to the Community team itself), it's simply a thought passing my mind. We also don't intend on implementing this from any outcome of this conversation - though if I could at least do the 'token/points' system, I'd consider that, handling money is dangerous, but accountability matters.

But perhaps a bit of reflection on the fact that we don't do this will give some people who consider a RoadTest pause for thought.

Thanks to all members of the Community that enters a RoadTest and writes your RoadTest reviews, and those who keep applying for a RoadTest even if you aren't chosen for that particular item. We appreciate you.

  • I don't much like the idea.

    I have one very technical reason - in the UK a competition being free to enter is a big legal consideration on the tax status of prizes. If one had to pay to enter a roadtest this might cause problems. (You'll need a legal opinion to be sure on this one !)

    But in  a more general sense I think road tests are going well as they are. I'm sure that incremental improvements are possible and desireable but I wouldn't make big changes to something that isn't broken.

    I suspect that Randall's running of the programme has a good deal to do with this.

    Most of the Road Test gear comes from suppliers who are trading the production cost of the item for exposure and a review. They also give stuff to "influencers". I think its good that E14 provides an alternative path where people who don't have thousands of followers (or any money) get  a look in.

    MK

  • in reply to michaelkellett

    If there is a price to pay, there is indeed a very serious risk of taxation on import, and even "customs fee" required by the carrier. Note that in France this "customs fee" is not paid back to the customs office but goes entirely in the carrier pocket.

    About 8 years ago I was sent a product by a customer who wanted me to fix the bug he was encountering with that specific equipment. Despite the correct "zero dollars / sample" documentation coming with it, the carrier asked for that "customs fee". Hopefully I could get it waived by proving it was a free equipment, but it's quite a tedious process. And I can't imagine how complex it would be to explain to a stubborn carrier representative that the amount of money is just a deposit.

    That being said, I understand the need to avoid "run away" applicants, but I fear that this would be yet another case of burdening the good guys for a minority of rotten apples.

  • Depends. For pricey oscilloscopes etc. I think a deposit or prepayment would certainly work. You try hire something of value. They all generally require refundable deposits to be paid upfront, which is then refunded upon return of goods. For low cost dev boards and sensors, however, I do not it is not worth it, in my opinion. You might struggle to get takers - unless it was very popular and hard to get hold of the product.

  • It’s a good question:  I’ve seen some questionable reviews which I felt meant that some one more genuine missed out.  There will always be abusers of any system,  particularly when the participant base is so extensive.  I had previously thought about a deposit-type system but couldn’t see it working for all the reasons mentioned above.  

    An idea I thought might work would be self-qualifying for a roadtester pool.  To get into this pool, a member must submit a roadtest of something that they already own that is sufficiently distinct to any other roadtest of the same thing and of interest to the wider membership.  There’s plenty of examples to draw from and comments on the blog can help someone genuinely interested to improve their review.  It doesn’t even need to be a complicated piece of equipment - I’ve roadtested a cable detector and a set of screwdrivers is up for test - (or maybe it it does to demonstrate commitment??) and could be a series of posts about developing a specific software solution for a SBC, for example.  The point is to show commitment and willingness to get into detail. Anyone who has completed a roadtest before is already in the pool, and anyone who has already blogged a number of times could auto-qualify at E14’s discretion.  Isn’t there/didn’t there use to be a question about community participation?  This may still be abused of course, but does require someone to put some effort in first.

  • in reply to JWx

    This “qualifying out because of no skill” crops up a lot.  It is as valid to apply for a roadtest from a “how would a novice new to the technology be supported and get to grips with it” perspective as an any application from an experienced member.  I’ve been successful with that approach before - it depends as much what the product supplier wants as much as anything.  You need to be realistic though: it’s unlikely to work for a specialised £15,000 oscilloscope!  Sometimes it’s just the fear of being seen as a charlatan that puts people off (imposter syndrome) but I’ve not seen anyone being called out on that basis before, ever.  In fact, one of the points regularly made is that you can, perfectly legitimately, call out for help in the forums for help if you get stuck on a particular aspect.

    I say: gird your loins and go for it, you’ll almost certainly surprise yourself on what you DO know!

  • in reply to feiticeir0
    feiticeir0 said:
    a alternate solution would be to allow to participate in the road tests just Element14's members that are above certain points

    There can be problems with solely using this approach. How do people increase their points in a way that's meaningful and valid? 

    You gain points for interactions with the site, creating content on the site, but what's to stop someone simply idling on the site for a year, a month, or creating an automated script that increases their points from benign activities?

    The approach for RoadTest selection will always include a person that decides and weighs different aspects up, I don't see that entirely changing, currently how active a member is on the site is a weighting point that contributes though, so you're not wrong Slight smile

  • in reply to dougw

    Any limiting, monitoring system has a significant risk of harming those who "do good" than those who don't. Digital rights management is a prime example of this, and any 'always need to be online' copy protection system.

    Glad to hear you love the roadtest program Slight smile

  • I don't like the idea of pre-payment, and I doubt whether I ever had started doing RoadTests if this was requested when I did my first one back in 2013 (did 20 up till now).

    My question is why you don't just charge for the item, or force the reviewer to send the item back if a review is lacking after 60 day plus a margin?

    To prevent against low level reviews, which we also had in the past for expensive devices, you could provide a template or some quality measures.

  • in reply to gpolder

    Respectable people such as yourself fortunately don't see things that we do when RoadTest Reviewers don't actually review their hardware, we don't tend to make a noise about it, because why should we focus on a negative when we have such great members on the site? We tend to take that up with them directly.

    I wouldn't take this post as a "we don't currently do anything with poor performers".

    gpolder said:
    you could provide a template or some quality measures.

    We do have posts suggesting how to write a "good roadtest review".

    What would be great, is if we were able to have some sentiment and quality analysis on posts that popped up saying "hey, looks like you could do with writing a bit more, or expanding a bit on what you've wrote, perhaps consider it?" - unfortunately I suspect if you're the type of person that can only write a poor review, then your reading skills may also not be great to see that there are links to guides on how to write a good review.

    I like to work with people and encourage them.

  • This is the age old question of how do you entice members to complete a road test.

    I would view this type of action with paying a deposit for a soda bottle to get it back when you returned the bottle or in this case a road test review.

    For expensive items, could see the value of this approach, but for most of the items available for road test, it would be overkill.

    I still remember the discussions we had about paying taxes on your road tested items.

    Given the trusted road tester approach and the quality of selecting testers by Randall, I am not sure if there would be any improvement to the current results.