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Eagle v8 licensing...

technolomaniac

Hi All --

 

Moving this to a separate thread so it doesn't get lost in the ether.  Here's my two cents on licensing and I'd love your feedback:

 

Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription and the EAGLE paid license will require that you install the SW and then generate an account to retrieve your license entitlement.  Once you have this, you are good to go and the SW will run as expected.  If you lose your network connection, the SW has a 14-day heartbeat that will enable you to work offline for 14 days.  I know that some folks would prefer to never have to connect, but this is required to support a monthly subscription model that can be selectively enabled and disabled when you use the SW (so you only pay when you use it).  The total cost of ownership for those folks using it less than a few weeks a year will thus be substantially lower and still enables you to access the full software for less money.  <Insert revolt here>  image

 

WRT to "what happens if autodesk decides to one day just shut off the license server?" ...ok, sure, that's possible, but so is a reality TV star becoming President of the..cough...nevermind, bad example.

 

Point is, that's a pretty remote possibility (think: time travel and alien invasions) and it wouldn't benefit us *at all* to upset the users we just spent real money hoping to bring into autodesk and earn their business.  As the guy with both development and P&L for the product, I can tell you that it's counterintuitive and wouldn't benefit us at all.  We know this.  We make SW used by governments, movie studios, game developers, MEs, Civil Engineers, machinists, etc. and you can bet that shutting down a license server is not to our benefit in any of these categories.  To demonstrate this behavior in one category, without a path for user SW and data, calls into question ALL of our tools' viability under this model.  Not helpful.

 

Now...a question was raised about "but what if I drop my subscription and I want my data".  Awesome, the data is yours and lives on your machine.  And for SW that stores data in the cloud (we have some of these) we always provide a path to your data.  If this again fails with one product, it puts all of the others up for discussion.  Again, not helpful.  (Read:  strategy = doomed).

 

"So what about needing an entitlement for the freeware to open the data I created in another version (a *paid* version) and reading it?  What if I want access and I dont want the 14-day time out?"

 

So here's the deal...We can do better here.  So we will.  Here's my commitment to the group here for freeware that ensures you always have a license that you can fall back on without need of internet connection *except when you first install it* (which after all, you would have had to get it in the first place):  in version 8.1 or 8.0.1 or whathaveyou (let's call it 'a future release'), if you install the SW and authenticate once, we'll remove the timer req.  So what I'm saying another way is, the freeware will require you to login the first time to get your license, but if you log out beyond that, you're good.  You got your entitlement and you can use it freely without connection.

 

Caveat:  to install an update, you will need to login.  The update server (which issues the new version...e.g. 8.1 or 8.2. or 8.0.1, etc.) requires that you login and get the update, but beyond that, logout.  Thus if you want to go off-grid in a mountain cabin somewhere, get your license at Starbucks (blagh! I understand they have 'free' wifi, but no frappucinos!  ...that stuff is bad for you) then get your license and go on your merry way up to the snow drenched peaks.  When you hear from the other mountaineers or your local yodeler that a new version of EAGLE is available...download, login, get your license, get your 'decaf double-pump vanilla non-fat latte macchiato' and head back up the slopes.

 

Point being, we can do the freeware better.  So we will.

 

Hope this is clear.  Let us know if you have questions!

 

Best regards,

 

Matt Berggren

Director - Autodesk

@technolomaniac

hackaday.io/matt

Parents

  • http://www.altium.com/eagle-switch/altium-designer/

     

    It was just a matter of time...

     

    --

    EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

     

  • in reply to Joop14

    Joop14 wrote:

     

    http://www.altium.com/eagle-switch/altium-designer/

     

    It was just a matter of time...

     

    --

    EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

     

     

    I have to think that not many EAGLE users would be in a position to take up that offer. Even with the 40% off its going to be over $5000 and that only comes with one year of support and updates. After the first year you'd need to pay another $1500/year for a maintenance contract for support and updates. If you don't keep up on maintenance payments you'd likely be stung for back payments if you ever did need to update so realistically, most professional users are going to want to take that option rather than risk getting stuck with a problem and having to find a lot of money to get back onto maintenance in a hurry.

     

    The people who will go for this would be those who were considering it anyway because they regularly do high end boards and the additional features of Altium would be a benefit but the full price was too much for them to swallow. For the majority of smaller companies the cost of Altium and the ongoing support cost is still likely too much. Yes Altium has some really nice features but EAGLE's really easy to use and can do moderately complex boards quickly and easy enough such that the step up to Altium isn't justified by the cost. If EAGLE adds better routing features then this need even for high end boards may be reduced.

     

    So for the $500/year for an EAGLE Premium subscription, I could buy this for at least 10 years for the equivalent of the promotional price of Altium and for that I get 10 years of support. If I factor in the cost of maintenance I could have 4 EAGLE seats for the same price as 1 Altium seat in that 10 year period. Now, I know there is an issue with no perpetual license but in one of Matt Berggrens posts he stated that they would give an equivalent v7 license to fall back on with v8 subscriptions and a promise to ensure that a design could always be saved in a completely v7 compliant format so we then have a way to use EAGLE perpetually (See here: https://www.element14.com/community/thread/58485/l/eagle-license-recommendat-ion)

     

    Best Regards,

     

    Rachael

  • in reply to rachaelp

    rachaelp wrote:


     

    I have to think that not many EAGLE users would be in a position to take up that offer. Even with the 40% off its going to be over $5000 and that only comes with one year of support and updates.

     

    Best Regards,

     

    Rachael

    Since the special price is only for Eagle users, I wonder how Altrium are going to verify if someone has a valid Eagle license?

     

    Eagle users moving to KiCad seems a much more likely move, as Eagle and Altrium are aimed at different markets.

     

    My accountant suggested some time ago that I used KashFlow

    https://www.kashflow.com/

    for my company accounts. KashFlow is online based, so you only have access when their servers are working, and whilst they support the product. You don't install any software on the PC.

    Basically, you can are stuffed if KashFlow goes belly up. I would not use software like that. I would not mind paying a monthly fee for access to a game, but PCB software or accounts software are definitely not something I would consider renting.

     

    My accountant also suggested another package (I forget which), which just runs on a PC. In the end we agreed to use GnuCash

     

    https://www.gnucash.org/

     

    which is free and open-source.

     

    Dave

  • in reply to geralds

    Hi Gerald,

     

    Not wishing to be mistaken for an Autodesk employee again as I am not, but I will comment again anyway.

    Gerald Schwarz wrote:

     

    The problem is that the license QUALITY will falling back to the toy version after expiring the license period.

    Customers are really punished with this action.

    Why is this a problem? If you need to use it you renew your subscription. If you don't need to use it then you don't pay until you do.

     

    Gerald Schwarz wrote:

     

    ! Most important: the license keeps in the last state of the paid category, and for the standard dimension a DIN A4 format with 16 layers .

    With your suggestion somebody could pay $65 for a one month Premium subscription and then cancel and they would be able to use that Premium version forever. That's not financially viable for Autodesk (or any other company) to do a tool like this with that licensing model.

     

    Taking this further, your suggestion of DIN A4 format and 16 layer for $10/month would pretty much wipe out all sales on Premium as those restrictions would probably cover the majority of users design requirements so they wouldn't need the Premium level. I'd love this amount in Standard but I think this is exceedingly unlikely! image

     

    Gerald Schwarz wrote:

     

    -> what will i do, if i go in holidays for more than 14, or 31 days.....,

    after then i switch on the software for an active or new project...,

    and then the license will say "sorry...". My customers will also say "sorry...".

     

    When you switch on your software it contacts the Autodesk servers and your software starts up and works again. They don't take it away and confiscate your subscription if your computer doesn't contact them image The only issue is if you don't have internet access. This could be solved by Autodesk making the call home period equal to the license period, so if you had a three year subscription it would continue to work for three years before dialling home. It would still have to dial home for activating any updates but making the call home match the license period would remove a lot of concerns of people in remote or internet starved places.

     

    Sorry if you think I am sticking up for Autodesk too much, I can understand peoples grievances with the licensing change, especially as Farnell tried to do this too (but in my opinion much worse and they implemented the dreaded flexlm licensing!), but quite frankly some peoples demands are going far beyond reasonable in the other direction. I think with a few more relatively benign tweaks to the licensing that I have mentioned in several threads over the last couple of days the majority of the issues could be resolved. I'm sure Autodesk are reading these suggestions, we'll just have to see if they come up with any additional concessions.

     

    At the end of the day v7 is still a good product and I have that license so if v8 doesn't pan out for whatever reason I will fall back to that until I need capabilities beyond what it can give. I don't see the need for throwing tantrums on forums and ditching all of my existing setup because of a licensing change that won't cost me any more money. The people most negatively affected at the moment are people who previously had the non-commercial Maker license, that currently has no viable alternative so they have a legitimate reason to be disappointed as they have no equivalent path to v8.

     

    Best Regards,

     

    Rachael

  • in reply to techsupport

    Hi Ed,

     

    please, once more, as i said:

    Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

    NOT THE PRICE IS THE PROBLEM.

     

    The problem is that the license QUALITY will falling back to the toy version after expiring the license period.

    Customers are really punished with this action.

     

    In no other (nearly / - small companies that grabbing money) company I know such this action.

     

    This is as if you have a car fully equipped, then suddenly all 4 wheels AND the steering wheel takes away, steals away.

    In this way, the paid full license is stolen away.

     

    That's the clearly argument in this business with AutoDesk.

    All other is lobbyism. One person talks about this, another about that, but not all together in confirmation.

    So because of that yesterday i suggested the 4 points.

     

    ! Most important: the license keeps in the last state of the paid category, and for the standard dimension a DIN A4 format with 16 layers .

     

    -> what will i do, if i go in holidays for more than 14, or 31 days.....,

    after then i switch on the software for an active or new project...,

    and then the license will say "sorry...". My customers will also say "sorry...".

    I know 100%, since many years that AutoDesk makes highest quality software; please also with Eagle too.

     

    Autodesk EAGLE

    -> here in that list is missing something, -> Standard version

     

    Best Regards,

    Gerald

    ---

  • in reply to techsupport

    Ed Robledo wrote:

    .

    Exporting EAGLE files to an earlier versions will be a bit tedious but it doesn't seem impossible, many application contain a "Save As" or "Export to" for legacy systems.

     

    Best Regards,

    Ed

     

    My experience is that this might work for a release or two, but as time goes on, the export will be less reliable.

  • in reply to geralds

    HI,

    As in any new project, the first big step is to revamp the engine.  And that is what Autodesk is diligently working on, setting up the foundation for the aggressive road-map they have traced for EAGLE.  In this latest version, they have added more features compared to the latest 2 major releases, please remember that the acquisition was like 6 months ago.  Its obvious that many don't agree with subscription, but with the same breath the community and users ask or almost demand new features.  Without raising up-front the price, how else will this be done? Making EAGLE affordable is paramount, but continued implementation to the software is just as important as the engineering of PCB design is continuously evolving.  Earlier attempts of adding an aggressive licensing failed, I am really glad it did because users wouldn't be getting nothing in return for this non sense. With this new model, you will get continued significant updates.

    Exporting EAGLE files to an earlier versions will be a bit tedious but it doesn't seem impossible, many application contain a "Save As" or "Export to" for legacy systems. 

    I'm not trying to convince anyone one way or another, that is a personal decision, I just think Autodesk has done a lot in a very short time, and ask the community for some patience, you will be pleasantly surprised.

    Best Regards,

    Ed

  • in reply to technolomaniac

    Matt Berggren wrote:

     

    @Klaus, et. Al --

     

    You're correct, we need to handle any new objects in the export process which, as you'd expect in any CAD system, will mean some loss in fidelity. I can recall vividly supporting the old PDIF format from Master Designer & Tango (now you get a sense for how old I am...dang!) when we built and released later versions of Accel / PCAD (I see eagle still has a PDIF import ULP which made me smile a bit!). We had both import and export. Same was true after Protel acquired us and we had to support both legacy PCAD and legacy Protel in the Altium-era (ASCII altium is still a legacy format, Protel v6 from what I recall).

     

     

    Hi Matt,

     

    Congratulations! Now.... we make a small step forward.

     

    At that time, pre Altium, with PCAD 4.5 (1985); 5.0 (1986,..,87); .... 8..8.5 ( first program for Windows; 1988...2000; after that i used PCAD 2001, 2002) that was  the theater that the files in binary wasn't compatible to each versions. (now you can sense how old i am... image )

    Only with the interface export/import in ASCII format (every time we jumped across in the shell) was able to convert to the newer software version.

     

    But, that was the point, all wires was fixed as wire, absolut stabil.

    They didn't merged with lines (drawing lines). This was it what i loved against some other tools, e.g. from cadence.
    The second software that have a stabil wire connection is Eagle and this have its famous price: cheap and easy to use.

     

    But now the quality was lost.

    The quality can be bring back if the price categories also the license policy be actualized to the today's standards.

     

    What i suggest is:
    1) Free version 160cm² (Eurocard) with two layers.
    2) Standard version DIN A4 format, because most printer (e.g. laser printer) can print out the layouts in this format, with all layers (16).
    3) Premium format as we have, 16m² 16 layers, or if you like, 32 layers or such as Altium Designer.
    4) The license quality does NOT falling back to the free version, it must staying at the last state of its paid category.

     

    Then in the future, what you want to do with your promise.

    With this I'm sure, absolutely, you can hold all your customers.

     

    ->

    Ähm,,,, "wire" "lines" -- in an forum I've read the wires will be lines, also in ULP.

    hm.... i think that would be not so good.
    This problem was often - the user drawn lines but he wanted wires.
    And if the colors are the same then they have problems with interpreting, what is connected wire or what is a graphical line.
    Most users are eyes orientated, so they drawing what they can see, not what they can program.
    I suggest, keep it by strict separating.

     

    Best Regards,

    Gerald

    ---

  • in reply to rachaelp

    A promise from Autodesk to support future export compatibility with v7 worth as much as their promise to keep the perpetual license.

  • in reply to rachaelp

    @Klaus, et. Al --

     

    You're correct, we need to handle any new objects in the export process which, as you'd expect in any CAD system, will mean some loss in fidelity.  I can recall vividly supporting the old PDIF format from Master Designer & Tango (now you get a sense for how old I am...dang!) when we built and released later versions of Accel / PCAD (I see eagle still has a PDIF import ULP which made me smile a bit!).  We had both import and export.  Same was true after Protel acquired us and we had to support both legacy PCAD and legacy Protel in the Altium-era (ASCII altium is still a legacy format, Protel v6 from what I recall). 

     

    Moving forward, a better parser would be smart enough to omit those elements that it doesn't understand in the XML so you dont need to export the data.  This is a pretty high priority item because forward <> backward compatibility will give users confidence that they aren't "trapped" in a specific version.  The move to XML was a wise one as it gives us a lot more flexibility with this process than using a stream writer class, encoding things in bitfields.  This process is underway but it will take some time to implement.  It'll happen this year though I suppose. 

     

    Going back to version 7 is as far back as we want to go because as hierarchy becomes more "complete" we dont want to have to flatten everything out and it could get far more risky.  The trick with any of this is then also maintaining syncing.  So whatever we do to one editor has to be considered in how we deal with the other.  This is par for the course but something to keep our eye(s) on. 

     

    Future releases, we'll update the parser so if some new item is introduced, it just opens the file and omits that item or throws a warning and reverts to a legacy item.  For example, if we added a new "board" object built from complex polys instead of lines and arcs, we need to decide what to do if you want to open this in an older version.  That's one area where we need to be careful and deliberate in our implementation. 

     

    Hope this is clear.  We are thinking about this for sure.  Any feedback (or any insights from the Cadsoft legend!) would be hugely valuable!

     

    Best regards,

     

    Matt - Autodesk.

  • in reply to autodeskguest

    Klaus Schmidinger wrote on Mon, 20 February 2017 14:49

    On 20.02.2017 13:54, Rachael wrote:

    ...

    Yes agreed it would likely break v7 if trying to open a v8 file

    with new

    objects, but this is mitigated by the export to v7 option they

    have said

    they will provide.

     

    The XML file structure of V7 represents everything that the V7

    executable

    can handle. Once a later version introduces new stuff in the XML data,

    there is no way V7 could possibly understand and handle that - not even

    if

    they provide an "export to V7 option". There would always be something

    missing or misinterpreted. Unless, of course, there's some sort of

    wizardry

    involved... ;).

     

    Klaus

     

     

    Clearly any export to v7 would have to omit or recreate in a compatible way

    anything that v7 wouldn't natively understand.... image

     

    I think the idea being that v7 contains all the features necessary to

    accurately render a board. Any new objects in the v8 file would be likely

    related to the new features required for designing the PCB but not for

    rendering it in a form which can then be subsequently edited by v7.

     

    Best Regards,

     

    Rachael

     

     

     

    --

    EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

     

  • in reply to rachaelp

    On 20.02.2017 13:54, Rachael wrote:

    ...

    Yes agreed it would likely break v7 if trying to open a v8 file with new

    objects, but this is mitigated by the export to v7 option they have said

    they will provide.

     

    The XML file structure of V7 represents everything that the V7 executable

    can handle. Once a later version introduces new stuff in the XML data,

    there is no way V7 could possibly understand and handle that - not even if

    they provide an "export to V7 option". There would always be something

    missing or misinterpreted. Unless, of course, there's some sort of wizardry

    involved... ;-).

     

    Klaus

     

  • in reply to autodeskguest

    Klaus Schmidinger wrote on Mon, 20 February 2017 12:40

    On 20.02.2017 13:00, Rachael wrote:

    ...

    Currently v8

    files open fine in v7 and they're going to implement an exporter

    to v7 so

    if this ceases to be the case the freeware version will be able to

    open it

    and allow export to v7.

     

    This will break as soon as they implement any new objects or

    properties

    in a later version. Anything that V7 doesn't know of, it can't handle.

     

    Klaus

     

     

    Yes agreed it would likely break v7 if trying to open a v8 file with new

    objects, but this is mitigated by the export to v7 option they have said

    they will provide.

     

    Maybe instead they could release a v7.8 with an enhanced import feature

    which could download v8 file personalities so that it can always open up a

    v8 file directly rather than relying on an export?

     

    I don't know, I'm not giving up on EAGLE as for me the new issues with

    licensing can be worked around such that the potential implications aren't

    more severe than having to throw away years of experience, libraries,

    utilities etc. Others clearly have a differing view but I think switching

    to something else is more risk than any perceived future risk with the

    licensing issue, it is for me at least for now.

     

    Best Regards,

     

    Rachael

     

     

     

     

    --

    EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

     

Reply
  • in reply to autodeskguest

    Klaus Schmidinger wrote on Mon, 20 February 2017 12:40

    On 20.02.2017 13:00, Rachael wrote:

    ...

    Currently v8

    files open fine in v7 and they're going to implement an exporter

    to v7 so

    if this ceases to be the case the freeware version will be able to

    open it

    and allow export to v7.

     

    This will break as soon as they implement any new objects or

    properties

    in a later version. Anything that V7 doesn't know of, it can't handle.

     

    Klaus

     

     

    Yes agreed it would likely break v7 if trying to open a v8 file with new

    objects, but this is mitigated by the export to v7 option they have said

    they will provide.

     

    Maybe instead they could release a v7.8 with an enhanced import feature

    which could download v8 file personalities so that it can always open up a

    v8 file directly rather than relying on an export?

     

    I don't know, I'm not giving up on EAGLE as for me the new issues with

    licensing can be worked around such that the potential implications aren't

    more severe than having to throw away years of experience, libraries,

    utilities etc. Others clearly have a differing view but I think switching

    to something else is more risk than any perceived future risk with the

    licensing issue, it is for me at least for now.

     

    Best Regards,

     

    Rachael

     

     

     

     

    --

    EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

     

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